New LS geometry

[janissary12]

Hmmmm, the stills & video I've seen of the BS2 Little Sister geometry are making me grumpy.

(example: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4034/rebuilding_rapture_choices_and_.php?page=5)


(#2 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4034/rebuilding_rapture_choices_and_.php?page=4)

The problem seems to be that the LSs don't look like little girls: they look like tiny women with adult heads. The mesh doesn't 'read' as 'little girl'-- it's a weird hybrid.

(2K's previous decision re BS1's LS's voice - less childlike-- is a worrying precident.)

[Cohen's Scherzo No. 7]

Huh. You're right. They do have adult heads. That's weird.

[ADAMJUNKIE]

by "geometry" do you mean design?

maybe that was the hair-style in that era...

[the Riveter]

Yeah I can't help but agree with you there, but it's a step forward compared to the giant-eyed, big-headed LS from Bioshock 1.

[RTM]

Ok, first off, Your seeing the little sisters through the eyes of their protectors, the big daddies, so they will probably look different to a degree. Secound, I dont really see it. They do look different than the first game, but not like the way you described them. They just have a hair style that kinda makes um look a little older.

[janissary12]

I'm an animator, so I think of them as "geometry" or "meshes".

RTM, I disagree: the proportions are off. The eyes are too adult, for one. Even if I agreed with your points, the LSs are essentially feral children: where are they going to get their hair 'done'? >;^)

I also suspect that if motion capture were used, they used adult motion actors rather than child mocap actors, and that contributes to the wrongness in the proportions when moving.

IMO, In general, 2k seems to have trouble making a satisfactory LS: the thing I liked most about them was the slapping sound of their little bare feet. But the change in voice late in the game for BS1, the lack of variety, and the poor modeling around the eyes still grates on me.

[Electro-Bolt]

You guys need to remember that this is a video game. Proportions aren't always exact. The art in Bioshock is what makes it unique from other games.

[janissary12]

I wouldn't want them to be exact, in fact a variety of shapes of LS's would be a major treat. (where's the chubby kid? The gawky one?)

However, there are well known guidelines to what makes a drawn or sculpted figure look like a child vs. an adult, and what I've seen so far doesn't convince me.

(For that matter, where's the fat splicers? The short ones? The husky ones? The out-of-shape ones? I'd like to outrun a splicer now and again.....)

[the Riveter]

I wouldn't want them to be exact, in fact a variety of shapes of LS's would be a major treat. (where's the chubby kid? The gawky one?)

However, there are well known guidelines to what makes a drawn or sculpted figure look like a child vs. an adult, and what I've seen so far doesn't convince me.

(For that matter, where's the fat splicers? The short ones? The husky ones? The out-of-shape ones? I'd like to outrun a splicer now and again.....)

Here's a simple answer: Bioshock 2's engine probably can't handle too many different character designs, even though that would be awesome. It's a sad fact about videogames.

[ADAMJUNKIE]

However, there are well known guidelines to what makes a drawn or sculpted figure look like a child vs. an adult, and what I've seen so far doesn't convince me.

(For that matter, where's the fat splicers? The short ones? The husky ones? The out-of-shape ones? I'd like to outrun a splicer now and again.....)

by "well known guidelines" for childlike features do you mean like baby-fat and round-ish faces? well in rapture i'm sure there's not much food left after 10 years, they're probly not well nourished. maybe that is why they look skinnier and not as child-like as you hoped. there is also a possibility that the little sister's job of gathering, drinking and recycling ADAM affected their features possibly making them look older. also, as it has been said, a game that focuses so much immersion, depth, and detail has to skimp on some features like personal character models

there is a fat splicer! in multiplayer mode theres a bussiness man you can choose to be and he's fat! yay obesity! jkjkjk

[Stranger]

I wouldn't want them to be exact, in fact a variety of shapes of LS's would be a major treat. (where's the chubby kid? The gawky one?)

However, there are well known guidelines to what makes a drawn or sculpted figure look like a child vs. an adult, and what I've seen so far doesn't convince me.

(For that matter, where's the fat splicers? The short ones? The husky ones? The out-of-shape ones? I'd like to outrun a splicer now and again.....)

Have you seen all the models they have?
Atleast in the multiplayer there's that fat businessman, so I think we might see a fat splicer based on that model.

[xXMINTY DEATHXx]

We have to remember too, according to the screens we have right now, the big daddy is still a Rosie. So who's to say that the little sister won't look different when the game rolls around. The same goes for types. In Bio1 the little sisters did have different color hair and dresses, and that was almost 3 years ago. The technology has improved greatly since then, I think different little sisters is a real possibility.

[Electro-Bolt]

The Little Sisters all look very alike for a reason. The Big Sister is kidnapping children that all ressemble the original Little Sisters (which is why it's unlikely to see a fat kid running around :rolleyes: ) It has nothing to do with Bioshock 2's engine. Look at Grand Theft Auto IV for example. I have not yet seen two of the same character. I expect Bioshock 2 to be just as detailed. And like I said, there's really nothing wrong with the character designs. Every video game has it's own unique art style.

[brendensavi]

I think they look perfectly fine, I was actually extremely happy when I saw the first screenshots of them because they're exactly how I always thought they should look. The Little Sisters will always be my favorite characters in Bioshock, but I have to admit, I was bothered by the cartoonish look they were given in Bio 1.

[janissary12]

Here's a simple answer: Bioshock 2's engine probably can't handle too many different character designs, even though that would be awesome. It's a sad fact about videogames.

Really? Character geometry is tiny compared to environment geometry. I always figured it was just a production choice.

[janissary12]

Obviously this is a question of taste, and they are not to my taste. I think 2K could do better.

http://www.idrawdigital.com/2009/01/drawing-the-human-form-proportions-from-child-to-adult/

I hope they go beyond the limited skinning exchange they did for the LS's most easily seen in Tenenbaum's safehouse and the climactic boss battle.

[Electro-Bolt]

It's always sad to meet a "shallow gamer".

[Blue Lightning]

Well, a few different skins sure cannot hurt. :)

[soviet prince]

they look like little girls to me, I want them to be a little diffrent anyway

[RTM]

I'm an animator, so I think of them as "geometry" or "meshes".

RTM, I disagree: the proportions are off. The eyes are too adult, for one. Even if I agreed with your points, the LSs are essentially feral children: where are they going to get their hair 'done'? >;^)

I also suspect that if motion capture were used, they used adult motion actors rather than child mocap actors, and that contributes to the wrongness in the proportions when moving.

IMO, In general, 2k seems to have trouble making a satisfactory LS: the thing I liked most about them was the slapping sound of their little bare feet. But the change in voice late in the game for BS1, the lack of variety, and the poor modeling around the eyes still grates on me.


I have never had any problem at all with just about anything 2k did on bioshock 1. The little sisters look fine, they dont look like mini adults at all...
You need to remember, first off in Bioshock 1, Little sisters were recruited at an orphanage, Ryan wouldnt let just disgusing kids do this, he would want them to look a little presentable, in Bioshock 2 little kids were kidnapped, perhaps their hair was done when they were caught, and never let down, or maybe the little sister does their hair... We'll just have to wait for bioshock 2 to see.

[RTM]

I wouldn't want them to be exact, in fact a variety of shapes of LS's would be a major treat. (where's the chubby kid? The gawky one?)

However, there are well known guidelines to what makes a drawn or sculpted figure look like a child vs. an adult, and what I've seen so far doesn't convince me.

(For that matter, where's the fat splicers? The short ones? The husky ones? The out-of-shape ones? I'd like to outrun a splicer now and again.....)

Little sisters were chosen to look a certain way.. I think, also a fat splicer? He's gonna last like 30 secounds in the cruel world of Rapture, remember, it is survival of the fittest in Rapture, there arent going to be alot of difference, Skinny, strong and spliced are the best ones that have the best chance of survival.

[ADAMJUNKIE]

I guess its just a matter of opinion...i like them tho...

[japester]

I never really noticed a problem with the new art (or the old, for that matter). I can kind of see where the OP is coming from, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest. If anything, they might have intentionally tweaked them to subliminally effect player's reactions to them. To cause a slight uneasiness perhaps. I'm just guessing.

If the OP is in the industry, of course he'll be more sensitive to this stuff. It's like how I, as a former zookeeper, am disgusted by most zoos I visit, whereas the visitors are all having a ball. It's the professional eye versus the casual observer.

[Halsfield]

Personally, I think if they really did attempt to make these models look a bit older it could have something to do with their accelerated aging. They might age more in the face at a quicker rate than the rest of their body, or they might be stuck with small bodies and their faces are getting older similar to how splicers are becoming more ugly/deformed as time goes on but their bodies are staying the same.

Look at pics of the little sisters from the last game and in game even if you can. The ones from the pics in bioshock 2 are so much more detailed that it might make them look different but I do not see them looking older. Their hair is a bit better taken care of and is styled(probably due to tennenbaum taking care of them) but that doesnt make them older.

http://www.gameguru.in/images/bioshock-little-sister-1.jpg

[Don A K Bab]

According to Tennenbaums audio logs in B1 the Little sisters still act like normal kids to a certain degree "they sing, they play....." so why wouldn't they do each others hair up like little girls do?

You can tell they seem to think they look good as during the proving grounds section (which I just did again last night) you can hear her say "I'm a pretty girl Mr B", they don't have anywhere to wash and they don't have any new clothes so I'd imagine they'd at least want their hair done as nice as another LS could make it.

[janissary12]

(no flames: this is just an opinion.)

RTM, you misunderstand me: the LS meshes I'm concerned about are the BS2 meshes, not the BS1.

In general, I liked the BS1 meshes for the LSs, aside from their lack of variety. (Don't they even all have the same hair? (waiting to clear some space on my machine to reload BS)) On my system, there were occasional render errors around the eyes-- the edge of the orbits of the eyes tended to pick up a specular hit that was not at all correct. This was true of the Andrew Ryan mesh also (on my system).

The stills and video I've seen for BS2 have a LS design that I feel doesn't read as childlike enough. <<SHRUG>> It's all down to taste. Specifically, the eyes again are the issue, not surprising 'cuz humans look at eyes really closely. For my tastes, the new LS eyes are 'too adult', i.e. not rounded enough for a childish face. In the one image, they are actually kinda almond shaped, like "Jasmine" from Disney's "Alladin"

There's plenty of time to fix this, especially if all the LSs are derived from the same geometry. It'd be equivalent to altering the parent file of a linked clip art image in a word processing document.

Opinion-wise, it's like the previous decision (in BS1) to go with an older voice for the LS's. The original BS1 LS voice was VERY childish, you can hear it on some of the pr releases of that time. I'd say the voice they actually went with (in English) was two or 3 years 'older' than the original voice. Someone somewhere thought that was a better choice.

[janissary12]

According to Tennenbaums audio logs in B1 the Little sisters still act like normal kids to a certain degree "they sing, they play....." so why wouldn't they do each others hair up like little girls do?
Ooo, excellent point. That would also imply that LS's from the safehouse get recycled back into the feral population somehow,

ORRRRrrrrr, that 'feral' LSs have a life outside of the game, where they group together in a safe place and do each other's hair. It's the place they go to when they are inside the vents. ;) ;) ;)

[RTM]

Hmm, first off, yea the little sisters in bio 1 did have different hair colors, at least brown and blonde, and I think I saw a red head at least once...

Anywho, I really dont know, I personally have no problem with the little sisters right now. But if I were you I wouldnt worry, 2k still has 5 months to finish the game, and in the demo, the reflection is still the rosie! so obviously they still have some things to work out, but I'm gonna guess they'll change some things before the actual release.

O, and I have never had that problem with the eyes your talking about, but I do play it on a ps3 so that really changes it completely.

[janissary12]

Yeah, they had different color dresses and hair, but the underlying geometry was, IIRC, identical.

(Those are just image maps that are applied to the mesh. So they are VERY easily changed.)

[japester]

I seriously doubt they will change anything about the Little Sisters at this point. Only one person commented on it out of all the articles and reviews and conversations here. I doubt that qualifies as a "problem". ;)

Changing Little Sister meshes that don't suit one person's taste is far different from replacing the player character model, which was a placeholder probably to preserve the surprise reveal later on.

[janissary12]

How does the model differ from the mesh? In my world (CGI) they are the same thing.

[japester]

Don't get hung up on my terminology; I'm just a layman. :)

My point is that just because 2K said the image of the player character was a placeholder doesn't mean that all the characters are placeholders. They had reason to withhold the final player character design for PR purposes, whereas the new Little Sisters have been shown since early on.

[janissary12]

If that's true, then too bad. :(