BS2 Ideologies: Going beyond Objectivism

[Rapture-Stingers-QB]

It has been mentioned on the BS2 podcasts that you will meet characters with various ideologies, creating a similar dynamic to Ryan's Objectivism and Fontaine's perpetuance of Capitalism. I haven't seen much discussion about this on the forum, so I was curious: What ideologies would you like to see included in BS2?

Communism/Socialism would seem to be a logical inclusion as a counteraction of Ryan's Objectivism.

[ADAMJUNKIE]

could you explain what objectivism is... please

[brendensavi]

could you explain what objectivism is... please

It would take a long time to explain, but the much shorter explanation of it would be the pursuit of happiness and growth through logic, morals and values. The power of yourself and what you're capable of. Pretty much what Rapture was built off of and what Ryan believed in. There's much more to it than that, but in Bioshocks case that's mostly what they take from it.

Also, I think a lot of the idealism's already covered are perfect for the game, I wouldn't like to see too much added.

[ADAMJUNKIE]

thank you...

[Who_is_Atlas?]

I think it's pretty obvious we'll be seeing some form of Communism/Socialism in the game. One might argue that the Big Sister already does - she's kidnapping the little girls for the 'good of the whole' in Rapture (the splicers and giving the Big Daddies things to do) and putting herself in charge of watching over these groups. She uses force ('big government') to put down the renegade individual, the prototype Big Daddy, from disrupting things for the good of everyone else. These messages are simply being done somewhat more subtly than Ryan's Objectivism, and perhaps the Big Sister doesn't really even subscribe to it, but a more educated philosopher might be able to point out the similarities in ideologies. :)

Religion also now seems to permeate parts of Rapture's life with the 'cult of Jack' having arisen after his arrival and absence in the decade between BS1 and BS2, something that Rapture didn't have before its fall.

[Venom Wolf]

I think it's pretty obvious we'll be seeing some form of Communism/Socialism in the game. One might argue that the Big Sister already does - she's kidnapping the little girls for the 'good of the whole' in Rapture (the splicers and giving the Big Daddies things to do) and putting herself in charge of watching over these groups. She uses force ('big government') to put down the renegade individual, the prototype Big Daddy, from disrupting things for the good of everyone else. These messages are simply being done somewhat more subtly than Ryan's Objectivism, and perhaps the Big Sister doesn't really even subscribe to it, but a more educated philosopher might be able to point out the similarities in ideologies. :)

Religion also now seems to permeate parts of Rapture's life with the 'cult of Jack' having arisen after his arrival and absence in the decade between BS1 and BS2, something that Rapture didn't have before its fall.


It would be interesting to see what ideology the main bad guy subscribes to...

[Splicedwhale]

It would be interesting to see what ideology the main bad guy subscribes to...


Indeed I'm guessing it will be a pretty well known philosophy but I hope it is presented in a package similar to how Ryan presented his philosophy: Intelligent and Easy to understand.

[[bioshockfrance]Morgoth]

I thought about Nietzsche and the idea of superman "übermensch". You're a big daddy who can use the plasmids and with free will. It's the perfect "übermensch". The humanist philosophy is also a possibility : are you a man yet or have you became a monster ?

Great questions.

[headkase]

could you explain what objectivism is... please

Bioshock is absolutely inspired by Ayn Rand's development of: Objectivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)) which holds that rational self-interest are the best motivations for a society. Ayn Rand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand) herself was extremely against communism and socialism. She believed that capitalism and freedom for the individual and limiting government were the virtues that made life worth living. The Virtue of Selfishness (http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/rand.htm) is a major theme in her work. She was not however amoral, she realized that in an emergency essential aid should be delivered while it lasts. Ayn Rand was completely against collective forms of government because she viewed the results of such organizations as limiting or hurting the individual.

[mueske]

I think it's pretty obvious we'll be seeing some form of Communism/Socialism in the game. One might argue that the Big Sister already does - she's kidnapping the little girls for the 'good of the whole' in Rapture (the splicers and giving the Big Daddies things to do) and putting herself in charge of watching over these groups. She uses force ('big government') to put down the renegade individual, the prototype Big Daddy, from disrupting things for the good of everyone else. These messages are simply being done somewhat more subtly than Ryan's Objectivism, and perhaps the Big Sister doesn't really even subscribe to it, but a more educated philosopher might be able to point out the similarities in ideologies. :)

Religion also now seems to permeate parts of Rapture's life with the 'cult of Jack' having arisen after his arrival and absence in the decade between BS1 and BS2, something that Rapture didn't have before its fall.

That's not communism. That's, well, that's just the Big Sister trying to restore the thing she loved most. I personally see no way possible for the writers to have come up with a way to bring communism to Rapture. Communism requires citizens, Rapture has insane mutants.


Morgoth;456852']I thought about Nietzsche and the idea of superman "übermensch". You're a big daddy who can use the plasmids and with free will. It's the perfect "übermensch". The humanist philosophy is also a possibility : are you a man yet or have you became a monster ?

Great questions.

I do not see at all what Nietzsche has to do with all this. Übermensch has to do with enlightenment, basicly at least - superpowers do not come in the equation.

The humanist question is quite good, which I'm sure is represented in the game somehow (otherwise I'll be disappointed!), but has nothing to do with objectivism. What I mean by that, one does not practice humanism. It's not a practical belief.

[Who_is_Atlas?]

That's not communism. That's, well, that's just the Big Sister trying to restore the thing she loved most. I personally see no way possible for the writers to have come up with a way to bring communism to Rapture. Communism requires citizens, Rapture has insane mutants.Which some may argue holds some sense of at least collectivism. The Big Sister is attempting to make all parties involved happy, even the splicers. It doesn't have to be outright SAID to be that philosophy, but it might very well be hinted at. Like I said, the Big Sister's thoughts on it might mirror certain similarities with Marxist thought, but I would agree it probably won't be exact. Like I said, perhaps Communism is a poor word choice, but I think collectivism is still pretty accurate.

After all, the splicers ARE banding together into 'tribes,' insane or not.

[mueske]

Which some may argue holds some sense of at least collectivism. The Big Sister is attempting to make all parties involved happy, even the splicers. It doesn't have to be outright SAID to be that philosophy, but it might very well be hinted at. Like I said, the Big Sister's thoughts on it might mirror certain similarities with Marxist thought, but I would agree it probably won't be exact. Like I said, perhaps Communism is a poor word choice, but I think collectivism is still pretty accurate.

After all, the splicers ARE banding together into 'tribes,' insane or not.

Collectivism is a quite broad statement, so I would have to agree.

My main problem is that BioShock was political in a sense. Ryan was an objectivist, he stood for something. The Big Sister just wants to rebuild Rapture, creating balance is a side product of that. Her thrive isn't an ideology in the same sense as Ryan's ideology.

[Fountainhead]

Collectivism is a quite broad statement, so I would have to agree.

My main problem is that BioShock was political in a sense. Ryan was an objectivist, he stood for something. The Big Sister just wants to rebuild Rapture, creating balance is a side product of that. Her thrive isn't an ideology in the same sense as Ryan's ideology.

its quite possible that whoever is controlling the big sister could be pushing for an ideology (such as socialism/communism/etc). I agree with you, but we dont quite know enough about the game to say there isnt an ideology pushing it; most likely, seeing as what some developers have said, it is driven by ideology.

[mueske]

its quite possible that whoever is controlling the big sister could be pushing for an ideology (such as socialism/communism/etc). I agree with you, but we dont quite know enough about the game to say there isnt an ideology pushing it; most likely, seeing as what some developers have said, it is driven by ideology.

Is it confirmed that someone is controlling the Big Sister? Or is there a solid base for speculation? I haven't been reading the news on BioShock 2 in fear of discovering possible spoilers.

[[bioshockfrance]Morgoth]

When I thought about Nietzsche, I thought about the sentence "What Does Not Kill Me Makes Me Stronger". In fact you're some sort of superman.