Fear the Horde - Mongol Starting Strategy

[MadDjinn]

So here's the first thread of how to play as the mongols. (funny the word mongol is banned on the PSN chat lobby).

This is long overdue, but I had to find ways to actually win in MP games against good players before writing this. I will focus on MP strategies, but most of this can be used for SP games, just ignore anything that relates to opponents doing smart things. I've now updated it to the strategy that I used to hit the top 10 in H2H on xbox, so ignore the follow on discussions, unless you can distinguish between prior thread comments and the new strategy.

For keshik production strategies and other useful information:
Supplemental Thread (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39030)

For the next steps:
Knight Rush thread (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39037)

In this thread I'll discuss the basics of the mongols and some ideas that you should think about when you play as them (some are very easily worked into other civs starting strategies as well).

The boni
Start with +50% trade from captured cities
Ancient: barb cities join you
Medieval: +1 horseman/Knight movement
Industrial: +2 mountain production
Modern: Communism

Just from a brief glance at the boni, and a working knowledge of the game, you should come to a few quick conclusions.

1 You can’t play this civ like any other one.
The basic strats used by most civs don’t work. gold doesn’t come easy. you don’t get extra units from huts, nor do you get that 100g free settler from taking a few huts. plunking down on the starting spot, building 2 warriors then grow/teching isn’t going to work. Trying anything that everyone else is going to do is a bad idea.

2 Production is king.
2 of your later boni (if you make it that far) are production related. +2 mountain production is great early, since most civs don’t get to railroads until later in the game. Which means that you have workshop level (or german forest level) tiles mid game. for free :D It gets better after you add mines.
One cool thing about the mongols getting Communism is that they also get the 'first to research' bonus for it. (the cheaper factories). This is unlike every other tech related bonus for other civs.

3 Teching is hard. your best bet for teching is everyone else’s techs. No matter how big the super uber power trading cities of your enemies are, they’re 50% better when you own them. now that’s nice :D This also means you can still be plowing through techs while in fundamentalism when everyone else would be crawling.

4 Resources in your cities will be scarce at the beginning. all barb huts sit on the resources, and that makes for some potentially bad, or at least average, cities. a lot of them will suck. and resources are rarely sitting side by side on the mainland.

All that being said, there is a lot you can do to make your enemies tremble when you come a knocking.


Capital Placement

First things first. The starting spot where you’re dropped will only be the best place to put the capital about 60% of the time. The good news is that you’ll find that out after 2-3 turns (or one - two hills). bad news is that you just spent 4-5 turns finding that out and running back there with little to no gold.
One of the most generally nice starts for most games is to have 2 grassland, 3 forest and 3 water tiles. It’s an average city, but you have the balance between 3 forest to push out units/buildings and 3 water tiles to get the early techs. It'd be better to have your capital with 3 grass/4 forests/production tiles (2 forest+2 mountains is great later) but never leave yourself with less than 2 forests (unless it's 1 forest and one mountain with gems (+2gold) ) as you won't have cash to rush anything unless you find exploration tiles/goodie huts.

For the most part you have to work with what the map gives you. Some of the time you’ll have a mountain in your 8, which is good for later production. Since you don’t get resource rich cities from barb huts, it is worth it to hunt for a few turns to find non-barb hut resources to settle by. Goodie huts usually have something nice under them. Use what you can find, but don't take too long to do it unless you're pulling in the cash from goodie huts. I had one game where I amassed 60g in 4 turns then settled in a mid-game centric area (mountains and food+resources) and push out 3 warriors in time to not be behind anyone else. Don’t settle beside a hill unless there’s so many in the area that it prevents you from doing anything else.

I have been known to landlock my capitals. People will complain, but it is sometimes a safer bet. if you landlock your capital, ensure you have a few resources in courthouse range, lots of food tiles and a few mountains. It’s your way of making a big prod city for mid game. The good news about landlocking your capital is it will prevent players from having naval bombardment as an option to boost their attack against your capital. Sure, your capital won’t help with tech in this case, but you shouldn’t need it. most of the barb cities you find will have tech tiles near them; more on that later.

Once you’ve got your capital settled, put both workers to forests and push out 2 warriors. Set your research to HBR right away to maximize the chance of getting it from a hut. Use the 2 warriors to search out the local goodie hut and exploration tiles. Get them as far away from your cap as possible, bypassing the closest barb huts in favour of knowing what’s out there and gaining more exploration cash. If you run into an AI or player, then start converting the huts. if your first warrior has already bypassed one hut, then have it convert the next one. One caveat to this is if you find a barb hut at 3600 BC (one tile move by the settler will do it). convert that hut right away and set it to grow to 2 pop/help tech HBR.

A side note:

The Mongols are the only civ that can have 2 cities side by side. This is done via settling beside a barb-hut. It’s not generally a good idea. But, if you happen to find a barb-hut that has 0 food tiles and you can get a great city by settling right beside it, then it can work. If the barb-hut city has 1 forest and 1 water tile to work, then you can use it to make defensive units while your main cities make offensive units (or tech). but, realistically this is a bad idea.

if you happen to find a barb-hut on a 2 tile island that has lots of resources around it, you may be able to make a case for dropping a settler beside the hut before taking it (Ie, fish on one end of the 2 tile island). it will prevent opponents from getting onto the island without the massive penalties for attacking. Even still, this is very rare to find later in the game.

[MadDjinn]

First Steps

Now that you’re settled, take a look around the map. Zoom out to find where the major mountain ranges are (if you didn’t spawn directly in them). That’s your primary target. Mountains have barb-huts all around, and you can use them both. Now that you know where you’re headed, check your local surroundings. If you can see beaches/rounded corners all around you then you’re either on an island or a peninsula. Both are very bad for you. if you can guess that you’re on an island, switch production to a galley after you make your first warrior. Get to the mainland fast. If you’re on a peninsula with no barb huts to be seen for 5 tiles, then expect a rough ride as well. It’s best to make a galley after your 2nd warrior in this case.

Provided you are not in either of the two cases already stated, here’s what you need to do:

Start producing warriors. Send them in each direction that you suspect another player to be (or huts). If a direction is a huge area, then send 2 warriors in that direction. Set your tech to get HBR. In the case where you do get cash (goodie hut or exploration tile) only rush warriors when you need them (someone is close) or when the rush cost is below 10g. this way you can speed up warrior production without wasting the little cash you do have. Otherwise save it for the keshiks.

When you start moving your warriors out, skip the first barb huts that you find if they are within 5 tiles of your capital. Go on the diagonals to find the most barbs. If you pick the right direction, you may get a hut at 3600BC, which you should convert right away. Keep pushing the first warrior beyond the close 2 flag barbs to try to find other huts or locate other players. if you find someone shortly after that, you can always bring the first warrior back and have a 2nd warrior come from your capital to take the barb hut faster. If you happen to hit a coast then take the barb hut right away if there’s nothing to explore beyond that point.

If you come to a barb hut at the same time as another player or AI, do not attack the hut first. let the AI or other player bring the hut down to 1 barb, then you can attack. if the other player is smart, they will also wait. The thing to do in this situation is to bring a 2nd warrior over from a direction that the other player can’t see them. use that warrior to attack first, then quickly use your first warrior to finish the job. It’s a matter of timing, and very few people sit there every single turn waiting for something to happen to the hut. in the case where you can bring two more warriors over to attack the hut, use both of them to do the attack, and then move your first warrior onto the city. The other player will likely attack you and if your warrior got hurt taking the barb hut, they have a good chance to win. if they attack and retreat, or don’t bother moving away after you convert the hut, then form the army on the city and kill their warrior. It’s only fair as they made you wait that long to get another city.

Many people also try to wait out the end of the turn before attacking in the hopes of getting it at the beginning of the next turn. If this is the case, end your turn (fortify the warrior) and keep your finger on the city button (LB) once you see their unit change stance (it'll go from fortified to facing the barb hut) hit that button fast so that you can then use your warrior to finish the hut.

After you convert a barb hut to a city, if it has no growth and no water, set it to produce warriors. Use the warrior that took the city to keep going forward looking for more players or more huts/exploration tiles. if the warrior isn’t needed for more exploration, then use it to defend the city, choke an area or sit on a hill, depending on the situation. You will also likely have a vet warrior or 2 once you’re done barb hunting, and have produced more warriors in time to handle a warrior or horse army coming from that direction.

An average start for a mongol is getting 3 barb huts converted to cities. A few goodie huts and exploration tiles are nice as well, but it’s very map dependant on whether you’re going to get more than 20-40 gold by the time you’ve exhausted the barb huts in the area. Don’t bother saving that gold for the 100 g settler. (unless you really do get 70-90 g in the process, or can steal a caravan from someone else - the AI is dumb most of the time). The number of barb hut cities that you’ll find is map dependant; and so is the quality of the barb huts. That’s rough, as the more huts you can get the more likely that you’ll survive long enough to be a problem for everyone else. Getting 2 or less barb huts will not be a good game for you. You’ll need to make settlers to build yourself up to 5-6 cities to be able to try to keep up with everyone else.

Having close opponents and no good huts (or no huts) is pretty much a death knell for the mongols. You can try to get out of that situation, but it will be a very hard road to get there. Go for a galley and aim for the islands while defending your cap. eventually you can sneak settlers back to the mainland and have a go from there.

Based upon your first 10 turns, you should be able to choose which of the keshik strategies that you think is best. go to the Supplemental strategy and follow that thread until your keshiks are ready, then come back here.

[MadDjinn]

Next Steps
The AI
If on your journey you run into the AI (happens a lot as the mongols) don’t sit closer than 4 tiles to their capital before getting your army together. That is, unless you start so close to the AI that you can get a walk in on the city. if it’s really early in the game, pre-2500BC, then you might consider declaring war on them and leaving it that way. they should continue to make warriors rather than tech bronze working. it’s best to stay away until you’re ready to go with keshiks though. if you can attack with a warrior army before 2500BC, you’ll have a 3vs2.5 fight against their warrior or less. with a vet warrior army your chances will be better. it’s worth the attack but definitely retreat if it looks like you will lose. losing the army is worse than giving them a vet warrior to defend with since you will likely need the warrior army for counter rushes. You have a high chance of getting the city with keshik armies if you don’t provoke them (this includes killing one of their warriors that’s wandering around).

if they get to archers, then back off until you get keshiks. Unless you know that they only just got archers and you have a vet warrior army on a hill. Then use that army to prevent them from getting an archer army. Keep attacking, only stopping to heal if you’re under 3 attack (or 4.5 if you had to heal twice). use all close cities to push out Keshiks (if you got HBR already, if not and you can research it in 1-2 turns, do so first). You can also threaten the AI for 25g and bring 2+ keshik armies in 10 turns if you think they're too well defended.

H2H AIs tend to not do much early, so you have a chance to get a few capitals early with warrior armies and Keshik armies. They tend to play like King level SP AIs. So aim to get them all before your opponent does. if in Teams, the AI is very aggressive and will spam warriors at you for days. Use those warriors to upgrade your armies until you have enough to go forth and take the capital. They tend not to be well defended due to the aggressiveness that the AI are set at. They will take your cities if you don’t defend them, or let them get that close. if in FFA, the AI is a free city; get it before someone else does.

Other Players
Now that the AI question is dealt with, you’re next problem is other players. if they are close to you, choke them off as best you can. Use the supplemental Keshik tactics to defend against their rush (horse or warriors) and try to pick off a city if you can. it'll set them back and even if they take it back a few turns later, you'll still be better for it.

If possible, lock down the area to prevent them from rushing you. if they are rushing you get warrior armies in the closest cities and counter attack where you can. Counter attack with keshiks and/or warrior armies (depends on timing) and keep them away from you. Archers are cheaper, but your Keshik armies will move faster than they will and can do hit and run raids on their armies. It’s better to fight them in the field than in your cities. As well, if you can get a Keshik army past their rushers, they are likely going to have soft defences in their cities. it’s well worth attacking them while they rush you (even with only one horse army) to make them switch to building defences rather than only offensive units.

If they are rushing you and headed for a barb city, don't defend it with the Keshik army. if you can get a warrior in there 2 turns before they come, then you might hurt them. Use your keshiks to kill their armies and just take the barb city back later. If they're already vet (or aztec) then just leave cities empty and let them walkin. kill them with your keshik armies to get the city back on the same turn. I've even done this with my cap and it works great. static defences are not needed early game. If you've got extra cash, then you should have spent it. You won't have extra techs, so your opponent should really only get a crap city which will lock them in to trying to defend it. If you can't get that barb city back right away, just go take one of their cities. you'll get the +50% trade bonus and the get a 1-2 pop barb city. Good trade for a mongol.

If they don’t rush you right away, then you are free to do what you want. That’s bad for everyone else. Don’t bother trying to rush other players with warrior armies, or even Keshik armies unless you have 2-3 of them and they aren’t ahead of you by 5 techs. They will likely be turtling and you'll need bigger guns and some tactics to be able to shut them down. (english, greeks and egyptians do this a lot) If they are 5 techs ahead of you, it means their defences are weak and you can hurt them with a few armies unless they got a lot of gold and wasted it on static defences.

If you aren’t getting rushed as you finish up your initial keshik spam, get your workers onto food production to make them grow to their next level (2 pop for barb huts and 3 for your capital). As they make it to their next level, switch them to tech. if you’ve only got plains in your barb city, then set it to tech right away unless you have 2 or more water tiles and lots of time.

Once you fully commit to tech you should have between 14-20 beakers/turn. even at 10 beakers/turn you can tech better than other civs at the beginning of the game. If you’ve got less you had a bad start; that’ll be taken care of in other threads.

Initial tech path

Your tech choices at this point depend entirely on what your opponents are doing. My primary tech path choice (post-HBR) is:
1) Pottery, masonry, irrigation
- Only if Pottery and masonry have not been teched. (check the Egyptian to see if they hit 5 techs soon, in which case also no)
2) Alphabet, Writing, Literacy, Code of Laws

Even with a Chinese player in the game, you will get to Literacy at the above rate before they hit 5 techs (provided they don't aim for COL at the start and backfill techs early). It is extremely uncommon for anyone else to research Literacy that quick. Most will go for masonry then irrigation if the egyptian player didn’t make it to 5 techs already. Or they will run to Code of Laws to get to Republic early (and sometimes a free trading post if there’s no Roman in the game).

I’ve seen some other tech paths chosen (Indian bronze working/Iron working + 3 other techs to get Fundamentalist legions running around), but few of the strats utilize the +1 science per city bonus. That’s usually because every other civ will have 2-3 cities at most when they start teching. A mongol can have up to 5-6 cities at the same point, so +5-6 beakers/turn is very worth it. If you manage to pull off Literacy first, then you should have 21+ beakers per turn at that point (best case). That will back fill the other 3 starting techs and push you into medieval. At this point (20-ish beakers/turn) you should go for Code of Laws. If you didn't grab irrigation due to someone else going for it, and you have a large number of rivers around, you should ensure you go above 51g/turn then switch back to tech to backfill it and continue expanding.

Head directly towards your next target, which should either be Feudalism (for the Knight rush strategy or Democracy (for the lol I haven't written it yet strategy). you’ll get a GP somewhere near this time, so keep it in mind when you do your prep work so that you don't hit monarchy first (if you go that way).

Once you get Code of Laws, sell it to any remaining AIs. They will switch over and start making settlers. If you have any keshiks remaining, you can easily pick them off for nice techs (if they get big techs - arabs, english, indians, greeks, english, spanish) since you should have the same lower techs that they do. This is a great way to boost yourself past 61 beakers/turn and one reason to keep a few AIs in the game past the initial rush.

If you are behind in techs very quickly, and either have a good production city or get a GB along the way, make the Great Library. It’ll help fill in all of the techs you need anyways, and you can be dragged into the Industrial Era even with a bad beaker count. This only really works when a human player is selling techs to the AI. Otherwise don't do it!

[MadDjinn]

Beyond the start

What type of game you are playing will determine what you can do next. If you’re playing h2h then you need to grow your cities/expand and start harassing your opponent. Control the mainland with your forces. You’ll fall behind in the tech race if you aren’t pressing your opponent, and getting +50% trade from all the conquered cities will make up for it later via backfilling techs. For taking out island cities, legions on a galley work better since you aren’t moving very far with the armies (dropped right beside the city) so horses aren’t the right choice there. Though, if it's what you've got, then run with it.

At this point in the game, the barb huts are worth defending. (2-3 pop) so it's ok to now start dropping in 1-2 archers (1 mostly, but 2 if close to someone) and not letting them go. Once you start teching, you don't want to give away techs via the small barb huts, so everything must be protected now. You should have backfilled Bronze working after irrigation (or Literacy if you went that way) or stole it from someone. never tech it.

FFA games are good for you since others will try to hurt each other (unless they are very close to you). You’ll have a choice of early rampage or speed teching. Depending on your opponents strategies, one or both will work well. The mongols are harder to get started in an FFA game due to the lower number of barbs to expect, so consider using the peninsula or island mentality in FFA.

Team games are not a good place for a fun mongol game. your partner will tech and you will make armies and attack your opponents. Though, if the other team has 2 big tech races, don’t expect your partner to be able to keep up with them if they are in synch on their tech choices.

A word on Artifacts
In all game types, you’ll need 1-2 galleys out there to go find artifacts. How early you make them will be determined by your knowledge of their location, what your opponents are doing, and if they are all gone by the time you make a galley (happens most often). Don’t expect to find a single artifact as everyone else will buy a galley or galleon faster than you will make one. That’s ok, you can make due. But if you happen to know where one is, then go get it; any artifact is better than no artifact. They galley/scout is also useful for checking out opponents defenses before attacking, so it's never a waste.

In my opinion though, the artifacts are rated as follows for the best to worst for a mongol player : The Arc and 7cities, SoC, AW, Templars (Atlantis is a later game thing if you get Navigation or Steam Power before someone else finds it). (Yes, I hear you all complaining).

The Templars give a nice vet unit, but truly it’s just one more unit. Can’t make an army with it until much later, so at best you can use it to hit weak players, or harass some expansion plans. Otherwise you need the Tank (Industrial and Modern era) to do real damage with a single unit. Against good players, you won’t have the chance to sit on the artifact for that long.

The AW gives the Great Pyramid/Great Wall (if an english player is in the game). Sure it’s ok for being able to switch governments early (go Communism to build an army, then switch to Fund. to attack), but it’s not as good as the other artifacts long term. the Great Pyramid is great for speeding up the keshik rush. ensure to make 1 more keshik army than you would normally (unless you're making 4 already) then switch to fundy. after that rush, switch to republic and pop out a few settlers in ancient (if you're still there) so that you can settle some cheaper 3 pop cities before cranking out the tech via switching to Democracy.

The SoC is great for getting 2 more GPs, and that can be a mini game changer if you get some good ones. A GE in medieval era finally gets you that 100g free settler if you need it. GS/GB = Oxford or Nav/EiTC if no Spanish and you can grab it early with 4-5 cities minimum. GS religion and GB Sam. Castle for the knight rush.

7cities early gives you the free settler (yay) a barracks and enough cash to produce 2-3 horse armies early (with prod from your other cities). It’s great really early and can give you enough of a boost to really hurt your opponents or end the game fast in H2H. If you have 3 or less cities, then 7cities is the best.

If you have 3 or more cities then the Arc is the best. One critical issue for a mongol is their weakness to cultural attacks. Get a barb hut too close to an enemy city that’s making culture and you’ll see it flipped. Anyone with a GA can flip any of your cities if you have no culture. Building temples distracts from keeping up in techs or production of immediate needs. But: getting free temples in 4-6 cities will give you a huge advantage. For one, you’ll get more GPs via the normal culture route. Secondly you will be safe from opponents GA flipping your cities (unless they are at the same or higher cultural level, which is very rare in MP). If you aren’t in Democracy at that point, you’ll be making more culture than your pop, which is a very safe option.

If you do go this route though, ensure that you start building temples in all cities that you take over to ensure protection of your units from defensive GA usage. Nothing stops a horde more than being in a new city setting up shop and losing it to a GA. I have used the Arc temple strategy to GA flip a city where the opponent built the colossus and settled a GA. It was really nice of them, and all I needed was having enough culture to cover my population.

[RDespair]

Personally, I've found Horseback Riding -> Bronze Working -> Irrigation tree to work the best for me with the Mongols. Generally, I'll send off 3-4 warriors, and research Horseback Riding once I've gotten a barb city or two. Then I set the capital to building Horseman units & everywhere else on growth & science (rushing Horseman units if I get gold).

True, you don't get the +1 movement that early on, but I've found that the horseman units really help for grabbing huts & messing with your opponents. maybe even getting a walk-in or stealing a caravan/settler. Plus when you do reach Medieval, you should already have a veteran horseman unit & a few extra horseman to make a veteran army for taking a city or two.

One key thing, don't worry too much about defense early on. Generally, it's better to keep scouting for additional barb huts rather than staying behind to defend cities against attacks that may never come.

I will say that Mongols are horribly underrated. I've been playing them recently and I've had a ton of wins in FFA and some really explosive games (my last game ended in 1200AD with me with nearly 30 techs, making about 100 culture a turn & with 3 super production cities thanks to Factories, Iron Mines, and Courthouses).

[MadDjinn]

I just finished a H2H against an average spanish player.

they got all of the artifacts, but I got the win. I tried out a strat that I'll post in a while, and it worked great. the only annoying thing was that I lost 2 different Knight armies vs. archer armies that game (22.5 vs. 15). but it didn't matter since I was able to push out a knight army a turn with my empire. I had the tech lead until I decided to flip to all gold and push out the knights. they used atlantis just to keep up. right before the spanish player quit, I had 5 knight armies and was waiting for steam power to give them a ride to his capital. we were back to within 1 tech of each other mainly due to all of the cities I captured.

the indian AI in that game was weird though. it ignored 2 barb huts near it, and kept pushing out settlers and spamming the whole map with cities. Which I took as the AI settled them.

personally I've tried the do Keshiks first route, but it never really works out for staying competitive against real opponents. the cost is way more than warrior or legion prices, and you don't have the cash to really do it well and get early teching in place. If I get 7 cities though, I definitely go the Keshik route early.

[Think_Before_You_Speak]

Yes, I think MD has got the Mongol strat to a T. Early horsemen will never or rarely work vs good players. I look forward to your next part of the strat write up, as Mongols are the one civ I was never able to fully master.

I still maintain that they aren't the best in a team game, and require alot of luck to go their way in a ffa with similiarly skilled players, but when one or more players fail to reach their 100 gold and the mongols have managed to get three or four decent barb cities, that's when you better watch out.

[RDespair]

I still strongly disagree about the horsemen. Over the past few days, I've played several Mongol FFA games and I've won almost all of them. In most of those victories, horseman were integral. Thanks to your barbarian cities, you should be able to research horseback riding & build horseman units faster than any civ except for China & America. Not only do they get your barbarian huts & goodie huts faster, but they mess with your opponent, either capturing their cities & destroying their units or scaring them into a defensive strategy that really slows them down. Plus, if a rusher tries to attack you, you can use them to counterattack & take back your cities.

The key is to not get too concerned with conquering any single city. If your opponent has an archer army in his capital, run away immediately and go search for more huts & easier targets. Like in my last game, I tried to attack Kyoto, but it was heavily defended. No matter, I skipped past that city, grabbed a nearby barbarian hut and then discovered the Roman player who was still running around with a bunch of Warrior armies. I took his capital, got Code of Laws, and then took his other city.

Also, don't worry too much about defense. With your horseman units' scouting ability, you shouldn't get surprise attacked by land very often, and if you do lose a city, you can always take it back with your horsemen.

One other thing, don't forget that you can sell your horseman armies when you run out of easy targets. At 60 gold an army, that's a pretty easy way to get your free settler. Make sure your unit is out of your opponents' range of sight or in a city when you sell it so that they don't know it's gone; that way, they'll fear your units even though you don't have them anymore.

[MadDjinn]

I have yet to see early Keshik rushes work against *good* players.

I do suggest one or 2 out there for counter attacks/harrassment, but not as a goal of rushing.

Let's say you have 3 barb huts converted to cities. each has minimum 1 grassland, 2 forests and 2 water tiles (fairly common hut type - except for the food part).

to be nice we'll also settle Karakorum in a location that has 2 grass/3 forest/3 water tiles.

so without taking the time to grow the barb huts, and after you pushed out 3 warriors from Karakorum. you'd have 5 water tiles being worked = 10 beakers/turn. that's 2 turns for HBR.

without growing any cities it would take 10 turns to get a keshik out from any of the barb cities. (5 turns from Karakorum).

given that you wouldn't be able to start this process until ~2500 BC or so, that puts you with 1 horse army at 1500 BC. earlier if you managed to get some cash, but that's not going to cut the time down by much. It's not a problem for good players to have archer armies around by 1500 BC.

even if you spent the 5 turns to grow the cities and then worked on Keshiks, you'd end up at ~1500 BC fo your first horse army.

a vet horse army is 9 attack vs. a non-vet archer armies 12 or 15 defense. you'll need more than 1 army to attack with, and since you're ignoring tech to get them, you'll be so far behind it won't matter what you have.

this is why I don't bother with the goal of Keshik horse rushes unless I get a lot of cash early (7 cities or 3 goodie huts)

[Think_Before_You_Speak]

No offence to you but you obviously don't play good players. That's not your fault but skill level in ranked games is low.

This is what happens when you meet a good player. I will set out a scenario of what I would do vs a slow horse rush. Fast horse rushes are more dangerous and require a vet warrior army and hill with a unit as bait beneath.

You near Kyoto, you see a forted archer in forest, but it's all good you win 9 vs 7, If you lost I'd get a vet archer which I would form into a vet army with the 2 archers in my cap, but you won so your vet horse army now moves into the forest tile but is wounded, so it has 3 defence, I now attack with legion army, 6 vs 3, you lose.....

Now you didn't grow cities, you have no gold, you have no defence as you stated. You do have an enemy legion army with archer support approaching. You are mongol so definitely don't have 2nd horse army @ 1500BC, so you tell me how you will survive?

Tell me also how this horse army helped you to win?

[danthechan]

imo, without much experience, i would say since you can't get the army fast the best bet is to utilize the extra movement and pounce on cities settled later. with 3 movement you can wait on a hill and see anything coming your way. also because 2nd wave expansion is farther from the enemy cap the cities are easier to defend once taken. you have me pumped to let my inner mongol ride tonight madD.

[MadDjinn]

I just tried the Keshiks first approach in two ranked FFA games to see what happens.

the first match I was on a peninsula so I moved up to the main area (high risk) and managed to get 2 exploration tiles and a goodie hut (45 g). getting the goodie hut with my settler was dangerous bc there was a roman player with his cap close and a warrior beside the goodie hut. I made it and pushed out 2 warriors. he attacked one of my warriors sitting on a forest from a hill. (1.5v1.5) I won and got a vet warrior. once my 3rd warrior was out I went to his cap and beat his defending warrior with no problems.

now I had 2 caps, and knew where 4 huts were. (I got COL from him). I set his cap to research HBR and pushed out one more warrior from my cap before switching to research to get HBR faster. I started pushing out Keshiks from both caps and took the barb huts fairly quickly. The Aztec player quit suddenly, so it wa just me and a greek player. I took out the chinese AI with 2 keshik armies and set about to harass the greek.

I switched to full tech and got Literacy and pushed for Feudalism. Keshiks aren't good against hoplites.

he quit when I got a GA and flipped his 2nd city.

-----

2nd FFA match, same strat.
I knew which map I was on this time, and where the likely positions of enemy caps were. there was a 2nd mongol in the game, started close to me.

I pushed for keshiks early, but only had my cap with 2 forests, so it took some time. I set the other barb huts to gold production. the other mongol took a barb hut from me, and marched to my capital. as he got there my first vet horsearmy was ready, so I attacked and won. I pushed onto my old barb hut and he quit. unfortunately I wasn't paying attention when the AI asked for peace, and I accidentally locked myself into 10 turns of peace (bad mistake). the chinese player (same player that played the greeks last game) took out the american quickly as he got the Knight from the Templars.

I had to back peddle and kill his knight as he was hitting my capital. I eventually wiped out the mongol AI with my last Keshik army, but the damage was done. The chinese player was already at 7 techs and I didn't get Literacy in time. from that point on I could never catch up in techs. I did manage to get Feudalism at the same time he did, and fielded 3 armies, but he had riflemen already and got lucky. I took 2 cities from the Aztec AI, but that was about the last good thing I did that game until the end. I got railroads first, but when I hit modern, the chinese player had already gotten communism and was over 30 techs. He got tanks and ran over me.

at the end I GS'd Steel and picked up my last knight army and managed to take Bejing. I got Mass Production out of it and got an army up, but he had too many tank armies to keep the city.

moral of the story: Keshiks are good for bad players (or good players playing the wrong civ) and harassment. but you can't use them for a rush strategy and survive the long game. Had I done my normal rush or tech strats, I likely could have won.

[RDespair]

You near Kyoto, you see a forted archer in forest, but it's all good you win 9 vs 7, If you lost I'd get a vet archer which I would form into a vet army with the 2 archers in my cap, but you won so your vet horse army now moves into the forest tile but is wounded, so it has 3 defence, I now attack with legion army, 6 vs 3, you lose.....

So your argument on why early horsemen are bad for the Mongols hinges on the Mongol player making a really stupid move, a move that at best deprives your opponent of a 10 production unit and at worst, loses you 60 production points worth? Not only that, but it assumes that your opponent has 50-60 production worth of units just hanging around his or her capital & a 30 beaker lead on me? Not likely to happen. Plus anyone who manages to get a Legion army that early in the game is going to be out attacking with it, not hanging around their capital just in case. Like I said, if the opponent has strong defenses, you go find somebody else and go grab more huts. And even if your opponent does defeat your army, it was usually worth it due to the huts & goodies you grabbed on the way.


Now you didn't grow cities, you have no gold, you have no defence as you stated.

I never said I didn't grow cities (I always grow my cities out to at least 2 population if there's a grassland nearby) & I didn't say that I have no defenses forever, just not immediately. Here's what I generally do:

Create 3 warriors out of the capital. Set the capital to research Horseback Riding, set any barb cities I gain to grasslands until they're at 2 population (unless there's no grasslands at which point I just set them to production or trade). Interrupt the growth of barb cities for a turn or two if it lets me get Horseback Riding quicker. Once I get Horseback Riding, set the capital & maybe 1 other barb city that has 2 forests to producing horsemen units. Have all of my other cities focused on growth & science, building defense when necessary. Rush units with whatever gold I pick up from landmarks, goodie huts, and other civs.

And the primary purpose of building horsemen units isn't to conquer other cities. Their primary purpose is to scout & grab goodie huts. That you can take these individual horsemen scouts later on and merge them into a veteran army or two and maybe conquer some cities is just a very nice bonus.

And the thought that good players build heavy defenses is false. The Japanese player I played against in my last game had great defenses, but was a lowsy player who posed no threat whatsoever and in fact helped me out quite a bit (stole a great person from him & sent a couple of caravans his way) before I finally crushed him with knights in the mid game. Good players build the right amount of defenses for the situation which in some cases is a lot & in other cases is minimal. Building defenses when you don't need them is a lost opportunity to have expanded, gained tech, or attacked somebody else. True, you can't always judge precisely just how much defense you need, but the best players make educated guesses.

[Pedal2Metal]

Nice job MadDjinn!

I'm going to start working on the Mongols & see what I can do. I like them along w/Romans & Indians due to the "unique" flavor of their bonuses.
It's going to be tough as good rushers will usually destroy the Mongols but I think your strategy is top-notch & my best shot. My son played a Mongol in H2H last week. Game was over by 2500 BC via American horserush.
That's almost as fast as my 3000 BC win over a Spanish player who decided to "walk" his settlers. :)

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time. I'm sure several of us are excited to begin practicing with the Mongols again. Now if someone could write up a French strategy, the "other" worst civ. ;)

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Pedal2Metal]

And the thought that good players build heavy defenses is false. The Japanese player I played against in my last game had great defenses, but was a lowsy player who posed no threat whatsoever and in fact helped me out quite a bit (stole a great person from him & sent a couple of caravans his way) before I finally crushed him with knights in the mid game. Good players build the right amount of defenses for the situation which in some cases is a lot & in other cases is minimal. Building defenses when you don't need them is a lost opportunity to have expanded, gained tech, or attacked somebody else. True, you can't always judge precisely just how much defense you need, but the best players make educated guesses.

Agreed but the thought that good players always build some defense IS true. I love over-expanders as they are just building cities for me! :)

It's a common mistake with certain civs (Chinese, Romans). If someone other than Greeks is 10-20 techs ahead, it's highly likely they have cities with little to no defenses. I simply load up a boat with a couple of units & go take them by suprise. In fact, trailing high-expansion civs boats works wonders. They'll rarely risk the loss of material by attacking your boat & once they build the city, you just go take it. With Mongols you don't have much choice in the early game as the barb huts are 1 pop & you get little gold which is precious so it must be used wisely.

BTW, most Japanese players make the mistake of being too passive. Good Japanese players don't & those Knights will be at your door quickly. Good players look at your cities & check the flag height to assess which cities are weakest, etc.... Of course, if you have GA you can use those cities as a ruse to take material but in general, weak defenses spells trouble with good players which by definition the Jap player you played wasn't by your own admission.

I find you can't assess a strategy's true quality without playing quality players on a regular basis which are few & far between. I know I don't feel like I have found the best strategy for the Romans yet & I play them a lot. It just takes a lot of games with good players to get the "feel" for exactly what to do in specific situations.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[danthechan]

i tried mongols tonight in a ranked h2h against a greek player. it was very fun playing them. i might have been doomed against a more aggresive civ as we were bunched pretty tight. english flipped one barb city and a greek warrior army on a hill was about to take another of my cities when i abandoned it with my warrior. i didn't have the gold to rush units every turn. the crucial moment was when he followed me to my capital going for the kill. it was 3 turns away with a mountain next to it. i joined up a warrior army and went around the backside of the mountain back to the city. i got a couple archers up in the capital to hold him off. by the time he knew what was happening i got up on the hill and took it back. it was in a mountain valley and ended up a 115 production city before it was over. i fell behind 8-9 techs after he got atlantis but switched to democracy and stole a gb to get eic. i caught him around tanks and inf. somehow he got the nuke before even tanks and nuked my capital. i knew it was coming and had 2 inf. armies waiting 2 squares away to retake it. in the end i built the world bank and won going away. on a sidenote i built a horse army after their bonus came and took 3 a.i. cities with including a potential chinese powerhouse that kept them pinned in all game.

[Think_Before_You_Speak]

Did you read my post properly or have you never been counterattacked by a good player.

Firstly a good Japanese player will always have tech lead vs Mongol unless he got no barbs etc. But assuming a somewhat equal start, Jap will lead. Iron working comes after bronze working, you receive a free legion, rush 2 more at 12 gold by using some prod. I have 2 cities, 2 archers in each, maybe 3 unarmied in cap, I have units outside borders to act as lookouts. I will see attack coming.

If you attack my cap, and devote yourself to the attack you win 9 vs 5, I then win 6 vs 3, as you are likely wounded but sitting in a forest. You can't retreat from a battle and run away in the same turn unless you have blitz so you die.... time frame for this is 1500BC.

You actually said you play bad players, well done, for admitting that.

Ask MD, how easy it is to stop my knight rush..... It is sometimes late maybe between 400 - 800AD but it won't be stopped easily and even if it is, not a big deal.

[MadDjinn]

I've stopped your knights before. it's harder when you've got the cruisers around to help them, but it's been done and I've got my tricks for dealing with your cruisers too :)

[ninja_master]

gayest things about mongols- getting barb cities with no food, i mean seriusly u now have a 1 pop city tht does nothing
trying to get culture win- if u tech fast enough and get to modern era and wnt to try culture pretty easy. settle near like 8 mts within courthouse range ( btw many barb cities r next to mts) build iron mine, switch to communism and bam with 8 mts+ u r getting 84+ production. this is not including any resouces, forests, hills w/workshops, or factory. many wonders r like 100-500 range so it should take like 3 turns to finish a wonder. please comment

[MadDjinn]

small edit to the boni section:

One cool thing about the mongols getting Communism is that they also get the 'first to research' bonus for it. (the cheaper factories). This is unlike every other tech related bonus for other civs.

Surprisingly yes you get this. The chinese don't get the Literacy +1 science/city bonus, nor do the Egyptians get the +1 pop/city bonus for Irrigation. (or the free catapault for the Arabs, etc - I'm pretty sure, haven't player them in a while).

so this makes your factories very cheap. combined with the mountains, communism +50%, the mines... you'll be up and running on mass prod very quickly.

----

about mass production and culture: yes you can do that, but there shouldn't be too many cheap wonders left by that point. if you're going that route, you have to start earlier and ensure you get lots of prod cities to bang out temples (if no Arc) and try to make as many wonders at the same time as you can before they become obsolete.

[MadDjinn]

ok, so we can assume the mongol horse rush is a bit slower starting than most (though, the americans really need to hit medieval for theirs to kick in at the costed rush prices).

but a mongol can get the Knight rush going faster than most (fastest is an english player who lucks into a GS via SoC or normal culture).

It doesn't happen often, but I've done it twice tonite, once totally by accident.

One FFA game I started 4 tiles from an english AI. simple enough choice, kill the AI - get a nice city and monarchy. barb huts are secondary at this point.
did that, and got a few barb huts. did the run to literacy, sold most warriors and built a library in London while still in Ancient. (overflow gold helped).

was easy to then tech HBR and Feudalism. too bad everyone quit... I had to laugh at the chinese noob who almost made it to 5 techs before me (even tried to trade me techs) but got killed by the Aztec AI.

Next wonderbar moment...

Started on what looked like an island, moved settler to be sure (it wasn't; just a bad peninsula) got 35 g in the moves, so rushed 2 warriors in 3 turns to get the two barb huts I saw. I started on a galley at that point. got the first hut but not the 2nd. an Aztec player started beside me and got the hut before me. so I figured I was boned. he dropped off the caravan into my cap. (how nice) and walked away (how dumb). I finished the galley with the gold he gave me, and went around to pick up my warriors to drop on his cap (built a 3rd warrior after the galley). found a goodie hut and the arc on an island, so I dropped the scout off and got the army together. bad for the Aztec, he had used a warrior to block me from getting to him, but ignored my galley that he knew about for 4 turns. I galley dropped into an empty cap (3 pop thanks) and he failed to take the cap back. He had already settled a 2nd city, and he didn't quit (which is a good show of character, if not sucky playing til this point). he grabbed the Templars (Knights) and brought a warrior army to his old cap. unfortunately for him I had a vet warrior army sitting behind free walls, so he lost.

in the meantime I had stolen a GS from the french AI, and built a library in his cap. after getting irrigation (4 water tiles being used) it pushed me over 35 beakers/turn and I teched straight to monarchy. I GS'd Feudalism and got a GB via normal culture. Was unfortunate that everyone started getting network issues and froze up (me included)... I was so close to pushing out a knight army, GB'ing the Samurai castle and teching religion... this was around 1000 BC.

[elthrasher]

The chinese don't get the Literacy +1 science/city bonus, nor do the Egyptians get the +1 pop/city bonus for Irrigation. (or the free catapault for the Arabs, etc - I'm pretty sure, haven't player them in a while).


The Chinese DO get the +1 science for getting Literacy for free. Likewise Arabs (and Indians if there are no Arabs) get +1 culture for free Religion, but don't get a free catapult, correct, and Egyptians don't get a pop boost from free Irrigation.

Yeah, getting the Communism bonus is pretty great if your game goes that long. On the downside, you don't get to switch to Communism without anarchy, which is a bit of a bummer. Mongols have a pretty good advantage in the modern age if they've managed to keep things competitive that long. I think they can be a decent civ. The only real problem is a fast horserush. You can maybe save your capitol, but defending the barbs is a herculean task if the rusher is smart and doesn't get his horses killed by a counterattack.

Nice strat. I look forward to trying some of the things in there, like in particular, passing by the early barbs and trying to find the ones that are a bit farther out. Good suggestion and thanks for writing the strat.

[MadDjinn]

ok, didn't know that about the chinese. I never noticed it when I played them in SP (i refuse to use them in MP)...

kinda sucks though that some bonus techs work and some don't. I can understand not starting the Spanish with a galleon (and maybe not giving a free cat. to an arab), but for the rest... the egyptians should get the +1 pop if others get the culture/prod/science boni.

[Pedal2Metal]

ok, didn't know that about the chinese. I never noticed it when I played them in SP (i refuse to use them in MP)...

kinda sucks though that some bonus techs work and some don't. I can understand not starting the Spanish with a galleon (and maybe not giving a free cat. to an arab), but for the rest... the egyptians should get the +1 pop if others get the culture/prod/science boni.

Yep, Chinese do get the +1 science from literacy. Chinese have extremely good bonuses that work for them the entire game (vs. just 1 time) which is why they are so difficult to beat in the hands of a skilled player.

I agree w/Egyptians comment. I think it's bogus they don't get the +1 pop, especially since it's only a 1-time bonus vs. all-time bonus like Literacy/Religion.

thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[EcLiiPsE]

I just tried this in Multiplayer, as I told you I would.
I got to modern era after taking down an English player and a Greek AI. I was starting to rush onto the close to economic victory Americans when I was rushed by nearby Chinese in my Capital. They destroyed it after a long battle between my Rifleman, but I was surprised at how far they actually got me, because my previous best as mongols online was kill one Human and loosing in the Industrial Era.

Great strategy overall, I followed it pretty exact in places I could, and only had to do very minor adjustments.
I would give this somewhere around an 8/10, but since it's Mongols and the outcome of my game boosted it to around an 8.7/10.

Keep making strategies, your very good at it!

[MadDjinn]

this is only the beginning.

the next step strat will come soon.

[Swedish Chef]

I've had some experience with Mongols and have been able to win some games in MP with them. I've found that going Keshiks is usually not a good idea. Attack with warriors early if you can, then settle in to head for industrial. By the time you've got the 5 techs for the speed bonus, I guess you *could* kick out some horse armies, but you'd need a barracks to make them vet and you're gambling that your enemy is settling mainland and not defending properly....if he gets an archer army in his towns, your horses are done and its cost you a lot more than its cost him. If you go multiple horse armies...just think how many settlers that is. They're quick, but a mass expander will have so many cities you'll never be able to take enough of them. The Mongols strength is when they hit industrial and have feudalism. If they're set up properly, they can crank out knights and dominate the map. Their speed means you can skip cities and generally take apart your enemies.

In order to hit industrial age and get to the knights, I like to start out with plenty of warriors, then get to either irrigation or code of laws (or both) then settle out in the islands. If you get to code of laws, you should have 2 or 3 barb cities that can kick out a settler (plus karakorum can always do a settler or two). Get a settler pump set up and head for the islands with a few of them. Eventually also set up some cities that have food available that are near mountains. (as was stated...its sortuva take what the map gives you scenario) A few cities with decent growth near mountains will be able to crank units later on. If you end up going long...get iron mines and factories there and you should be able to overrun your enemies.

The part about the Mongols that I haven't really figured out (and I don't think was addressed in detail here) is how to handle early enemy attacks. The Mongols are great when they fight where they want to fight, but if someone forces them to fight somewhere they don't want to, their lack of gold means they have a hard time. Aztecs, Chinese, and Americans can all feasibly have horsemen army around 3000 BC...the Mongols are not going to be archer army equipped until more like 2000 BC...and that's if they know its coming. They *must* catch the horsemen army with a warrior army of their own, else they're done. Zulu's can give the Mongols similar problems as their warriors will outnumber the mongol warriors (assuming the Zulu is using his gold on warriors too). This is devastating if the Zulu is somewhat nearby (also because the Zulu's gonna beat you to those valuable huts).

[MadDjinn]

I'm going to cover that part in the next part of the strat. rushes happen, so you need to be prepared. I generally will go for counter attacking rather than static defenses, but you will likely need a mix of both.

[Swedish Chef]

ok, so we can assume the mongol horse rush is a bit slower starting than most (though, the americans really need to hit medieval for theirs to kick in at the costed rush prices).


The American horse rush consists of researching HBR immediately and using gold obtained by the GP (or the GP's natural ability) to kick out horses immediately, which leads to having a whole army out by 3000 or so. If there are enoug huts, you can get a second army too...you're not hitting archer armies that early so you're basically hoping the game doesn't screw you on a 9 vs 5 or 9 vs 6 battle. This rush only works because of the speed. If you want to use the Americans rush bonus for a medieval rush, you're better off using legions or catapults. The catas are stronger (to take out hte archers) and the legions are cheaper (to overrun the archers). The day of the horseman is pretty much over once you hit medieval (though I guess the fast mongol horses can really slow down an enemy by making them defend everywhere so it can be useful...just costs you a lot too).

[Pedal2Metal]

The part about the Mongols that I haven't really figured out (and I don't think was addressed in detail here) is how to handle early enemy attacks. The Mongols are great when they fight where they want to fight, but if someone forces them to fight somewhere they don't want to, their lack of gold means they have a hard time. Aztecs, Chinese, and Americans can all feasibly have horsemen army around 3000 BC...the Mongols are not going to be archer army equipped until more like 2000 BC...and that's if they know its coming. They *must* catch the horsemen army with a warrior army of their own, else they're done. Zulu's can give the Mongols similar problems as their warriors will outnumber the mongol warriors (assuming the Zulu is using his gold on warriors too). This is devastating if the Zulu is somewhat nearby (also because the Zulu's gonna beat you to those valuable huts).

I agree. Surviving the early rush is the Mongols biggest challenge IMO. And it's a BIG challenge with a good rusher. The Mongols will need some luck to survive a good rusher, it's as simple as that. There is no "foolproof" method that guarantees you're going to survive an American, Aztec, Arabian horse rush as you simply can't have an archer army soon enough usually.

If I haven't wiped out my Mongol opponent before 2000 BC, I've failed.
So far, neither my son nor I have ever lost a game to a Mongol opponent in MP (H2H, FFA, or Teams). We've probably got roughly 300 games between us & at least 20+ w/Mongols in them. Once I see them in the game, I go for the quick kill because if they do make it to Industrial, you're going to have your hands full.

thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[MadDjinn]

sigh...

I think I'm getting too complacent as the Mongols. must be too many noobs around.

when it comes to early rushes, I can usually defeat them with warrior armies from hills and other trickery.

problem is.. I just played a game where I got a walkin on the greek AI. was playing against the Aztecs.

I knew the horserush was coming. especially since they got the 7cities early.

but... I only built 1 pike in each city. built up athens to 4 pop but ran out of cash when I saw the horses coming. d'oh.

so complacency is harsh even if you get the upper hand defensively.

played the same player right after that and I managed to get an archer army up in time, though I should have saved my warrior army for the counter attack rather than earlier. he ended up with infiltration on the horses at the same time I got the archers set.

it's rough defending those really early horse rushes with archers.

[elthrasher]

If you never lose, you'll never get any better. I had the same experience last night. In two games I got ahead in tech and expansion, but lost due to very good targetted attacks. Most of the time, my opponents just let me get away with bloody murder and I end up doing all kinds of stupid things and still win. I'm glad to play quality players who force me to rise to the challenge or accept second place.

I made up for it with an awesome 3800 BC win when everybody else quit. Oh man am I good! They must've known I was going to make a warrior and couldn't handle it.

[MadDjinn]

I'll have some new material for basic things done soon. I'll have to make another thread I guess and cross link them.

topics to be covered are early rush defense, barb cities, low cash environment issues, etc...

some time soon after I'll post a rusher Strat and a tech strat that seem to work.

just have to stop playing civ long enough to finish writing it :)

[MadDjinn]

hmm.

400 BC Knights (army by 200 BC). not bad, but I know I missed a few turns in there.

[Pedal2Metal]

Did you read my post properly or have you never been counterattacked by a good player.

Firstly a good Japanese player will always have tech lead vs Mongol unless he got no barbs etc. But assuming a somewhat equal start, Jap will lead. Iron working comes after bronze working, you receive a free legion, rush 2 more at 12 gold by using some prod. I have 2 cities, 2 archers in each, maybe 3 unarmied in cap, I have units outside borders to act as lookouts. I will see attack coming.

If you attack my cap, and devote yourself to the attack you win 9 vs 5, I then win 6 vs 3, as you are likely wounded but sitting in a forest. You can't retreat from a battle and run away in the same turn unless you have blitz so you die.... time frame for this is 1500BC.

You actually said you play bad players, well done, for admitting that.

Ask MD, how easy it is to stop my knight rush..... It is sometimes late maybe between 400 - 800AD but it won't be stopped easily and even if it is, not a big deal.

This is exactly what I do w/Japanese. It works pretty much like a charm w/Aztecs, Zulu, & weak American players. Arabians, you're better off having Democracy IMO although I still do the same start as it's the best way to defend. Strong American players are still tough to beat. That Medieval bonus is so darn useful & you can do some many things w/it. One american player simply spammed galleys, surrounded my city w/library. Another had 3 knight armies so fast it was insane. I'm still working on how to stop this approach as I've done the same things w/Americans & it's always resulted in a win. They are tough to beat & if they have any number of cities by Modern, you're in for real trouble w/3x factories.

I think the Greeks have a better shot w/Americans due to courthouse (if they can protect it) as they tech very fast in the begining due to democracy. I find the Japs & Greeks are close but just balanced a bit different but both interesting if you prefer a less aggressive playstyle early on.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[matt4632]

I played two games with the mongals and was beaten by a russian horse rush both times. I probbaly made way to many warriors but im still tinkering. i have just had problems with rushers because they have been close both times

[MadDjinn]

if you aren't horse rushing, then 8-10 warriors may be norml (depening on where you started).

warrior armies can take down horses as long as you're attacking.

[matt4632]

yeah i did make about that many but his horses messed me up then i moved to horsemenship and he had archer armies and was beatin me in tech by then.

[MadDjinn]

it's an either or thing though.

you either go the warrior route - choke off everything, have warrior armies ready for the counter attacks, etc.

or go the HBR route: 2 warriors to look for a goodie hut and get a few barb cities/look for opponents, then tech/get HBR from a goodie hut and put out a Keshik army or 2 (based upon the gold/prod route or 2-3 city prod/gold route - in supplemental thread) and use those to kill the incoming rush/go get a few cities.

you really can't do both since the one person who didn't rush/be rushed will likely be far ahead in techs/expansion by the time you try both.

[bobcat41702]

Many on this forum have decried and maligned the Mongol "bonus" of barbarian villages becoming 1-pop cities. I, myself, have referred to them as "those miserable, little, 1-pop cities." :o In recent games, I experienced both ends of the spectrum - the Agony and the Ecstasy - regarding these random accidents of artificial "intelligence."

In the first game, I was some other civ and successfully horse-rushed the Mongol cap. I found that they had already captured a barb village and converted it into a 1-pop city. Upon capturing it, I was dismayed to learn that it only had access to 1 mountain, 2 hills, and 5 sea tiles (none of which had fish or whale) - no grass of any kind. Only heaven knows what kind of handy resource was permanently buried beneath it. I decided to set it to work on a sea tile and consider that as its contribution to the empire.

After about 50 turns of producing 2 beakers/turn (excuse me, Erlenmeyer flasks ;) ), I finally - with a momentary surplus of gold - took compassion on this truly miserable 1-pop village-city and rushed a harbor so that the people there could actually feed themselves. Eventually, this city grew into a 7-pop city and built itself a library.

My other story has a much happier ending. I started a game using the Mongols and, about 10 turns in, met a German warrior unit and noticed that it suddenly went from 3 soldiers to 1 soldier. Obviously, they found a barb village, and I presumed that they damaged it enough for me to capture it. Not so, for when I got there, I stupidly did not count the flags before I attacked. I killed one barb unit, but the villagers inflicted damage. *(See note below.)* Meanwhile, the Germans healed and captured the village, giving them a free galley. Knowing that the 7 Cities of Gold was only a few tiles away, I knew that this was a disastrous turn of events and decided that a re-start was in order.

The second time through was almost an instant replay - except this time, I waited for the Germans to strike first. I then captured the village, and it instantly became one of those infamous, little 1-pop cities. Fortunately, however, this city had access to 2 grass, 3 mountains, and 3 sea tiles (1 may have had fish or whale, I don't recall). About 150 turns later, this pitiful, pathetic, miserable, little 1-pop village/city grew into a 24-pop behemoth - that hammered out the World Bank in 6 turns.

(Note: I thoroughly detest and despise the "Blow Gun Boyz." They ALWAYS seem to inflict severe damage on my warriors. In addition, they seem to comprise 70% of the barbs I encounter.)

[MadDjinn]

sometimes you get the good ones, sometimes you don't.

either way, capturing 3 or so barb cities early tends to turn the game into a safe bet. even if they only have access to water, that means you can tech with them while producing Keshiks out of your cap.

but I do find that most maps produce 2-3 useful barb huts in range so that you can use all 3 to make the Keshiks.

[Pedal2Metal]

sometimes you get the good ones, sometimes you don't.

either way, capturing 3 or so barb cities early tends to turn the game into a safe bet. even if they only have access to water, that means you can tech with them while producing Keshiks out of your cap.

but I do find that most maps produce 2-3 useful barb huts in range so that you can use all 3 to make the Keshiks.

Well, 3 barb huts isn't a guarantee. I beat my son yesterday in H2H as Spanish & he had 5 early barb huts. I built a warrior army & horsearmy & double-baited him w/militia + warrior army + horsearmy. He was doing the diplomacy trick the whole game but he never found my horsearmy. :) He killed the militia with his horsearmy but they damaged him. I killed his horsearmy w/warrior army. He meant to attack the warrior army but did his usual screwup by being so fast on the buttons. Wouldn't have mattered as my horsearmy w/naval support would have taken him down then. I then took 2 of his barb cities next turn & he quit as I was going to roll through all his 1 pop cities in a matter of a few turns & leave him with only 1 city while I would have 9 (7 + 2 settlers on boat). Yes, I'm pretty happy w/myself. That kid is ridiculously good so now I'm at a 33% win percentage against him which isn't too shabby. I do hate playing players like him however as they essentially force you to play their "playstyle" which is to say, extremely aggressive. If you don't, you're going to likely get demolished.

I really wish the domination path in this game a little more difficult than 4 caps, at least for H2H games. I think it would increase the percentages of non-dom wins which are essentially non-existent for the most part, at least in H2H play. Maybe in FFA/Teams, they could keep the current domination definition but in H2H make it elimination for the human opponent (AI caps would contribute nothing towards dom victory). That would seem like a more balanced model for H2H IMO & give the non-dom players a little more chance to succeed in H2H.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zso_Zso]

The domination victory condition of CivRev, i.e. that you ONLY need to take the capitols was a huge shock to me when I first started to play this game after 10+ years of playing SMAC (a SciFi Civ game from Sid Meyer / Firaxis) -- where you need to take over all cities (eliminate all other civs) in order to achieve conqest victory. Even in that variant it is the easiest type of victory, but at least other victory conditions are not so rare in MP games.

[MadDjinn]

The domination victory condition of CivRev, i.e. that you ONLY need to take the capitols was a huge shock to me when I first started to play this game after 10+ years of playing SMAC (a SciFi Civ game from Sid Meyer / Firaxis) -- where you need to take over all cities (eliminate all other civs) in order to achieve conqest victory. Even in that variant it is the easiest type of victory, but at least other victory conditions are not so rare in MP games.

yeah, I think by definition in Civ 3/4 'domination' victory was control of 75% of the map. control in this case coming from the culture borders.

that would have been ok for civrev.

[Pedal2Metal]

yeah, I think by definition in Civ 3/4 'domination' victory was control of 75% of the map. control in this case coming from the culture borders.

that would have been ok for civrev.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread MadDjinn. I'll create a new one.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[MadDjinn]

I didn't mean to hijack this thread MadDjinn. I'll create a new one.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

I think it was related.

mongols get enough barb huts and you can dominate the map.

[Zefelius]

It looks like last year players were debating the value of an early Keshik rush, with MadDjinn and Think Before You Speak arguing mainly against it and RDespair for it. From reading recent posts in the H2H and FFA threads, it looks like more players have turned toward Keshiks in the early going. Would it be a fair assessment that the Mongol opening has evolved for some players since this strat was first posted?

Thank you....

[ScottieX]

Once I see them in the game, I go for the quick kill because if they do make it to Industrial, you're going to have your hands full.

Which seems to indicate a lack of sense of history since the mongols decline came with the introduction of gunpower then industrialization.

[elthrasher]

It looks like last year players were debating the value of an early Keshik rush, with MadDjinn and Think Before You Speak arguing mainly against it and RDespair for it. From reading recent posts in the H2H and FFA threads, it looks like more players have turned toward Keshiks in the early going. Would it be a fair assessment that the Mongol opening has evolved for some players since this strat was first posted?

Thank you....

I always go for Keshik with the Mongols. You need to to get that +50% trade bonus. It's the most difficult, yet most rewarding horserush to pull off.

[Pedal2Metal]

I always go for Keshik with the Mongols. You need to to get that +50% trade bonus. It's the most difficult, yet most rewarding horserush to pull off.

Ditto. I don't know anyone credible who doesn't go for Keshiks w/Mongols.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Zefelius]

That's what I thought. Thanks guys...

BTW, just played against Duke's Americans with the Mongols. He GSed Industrialization and University at around 500-300BC I seem to recall. That was a funny game! :eek:

[MadDjinn]

It looks like last year players were debating the value of an early Keshik rush, with MadDjinn and Think Before You Speak arguing mainly against it and RDespair for it. From reading recent posts in the H2H and FFA threads, it looks like more players have turned toward Keshiks in the early going. Would it be a fair assessment that the Mongol opening has evolved for some players since this strat was first posted?

Thank you....

yeah, my strat has changed a bit with them over time. I did write a mongol horse rush thread as well. ;)

[FF-GTR]

Moved from this thread (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=929744#post929744), since it was entirely OT...




uhm... unfortunately for those trees, the starting strat is entirely out of date. (don't use it)

the knight rush works still, since it's based upon a set of conditions before using it (though I should check it again).

the extra thread should still be ok.

maybe I'll write it up tomorrow... (or you can just hand me your xbl account and I'll play some of the games :D )

I felt it doesn't stress horses nearly enough. What you wind up with is a lot of little cities spread out over some fair amount of distance. So even for defense, horses will be more effective than trying to invest in that many archers. Any decent player will press hard and archers would get really expensive and eventually obselete.

What about growing those 1 pops to 2 if you have grass immediately? This strat instead stressed more warriors, but seems like a good idea unless you are getting pressed so early you really really need those warriors for defense. I'd rather keep pumping warriors from cap, leave the 1 pops undefended briefly, and get them to 2 pop ASAP, doubling their usefulness sooner.

I would be happy to work on one of those unified strats with you as I play more games with them in this tourney.

Of course I won't be fooling anyone, it will still be your strat. But I'll gladly add in some long winded posts as is my style. You know... in case there isn't enough blaring black and white contrast on the screen after you're done.

[MadDjinn]

lol.

yeah, even I don't use this strat anymore. I've got a new one that got me to the top 10 with few actual losses. I'll write it down tomorrow (maybe).

then I'll have to go through and update the various threads to make them make sense again.

my newer strat isn't that much different that what's above, though it does focus more on the keshiks early.

[elthrasher]

It's really a pretty simple formula once you're settled:

Karakorum: two warriors, then bank hammers for Keshik.

barbs: If a sea tile is available, work science until HBR, then work gold after that. If no sea tile, but there's a tree, then store production for Keshik. If you have neither sea nor forest, then grow it. If you don't have grass either (sometimes this happens, heh), then go back to the start and work either 1 science, 1 prod or 1 food, in that order.

Try to get HBR for free from a hut after you're settled. Before settling, 25 gold is better. If you can't get free HBR and barbs are scarce, you may have to finish teching HBR in Karakorum. This can be okay if you got some gold. It can be devastating if you didn't.

Once the engine is set up, pump out as many armies as you determine will be useful. I usually do 1-2.

Once the Keshik are out, grow any cities that can grow, maybe produce a settler in Karakorum. Everything else should be on gold to get to 100 (this will get easy once you take an AI cap or three). After that, you should be able to manage 20+ trade pretty easily. Go for Irrigation if possible and now you'll have a bunch of 3 pop cities pretty early in the game. Nobody else but China can do that. It should be a walk from there.

Is that more or less what you're doing now Mad?

[MadDjinn]

more or less, but I don't care about the 100g settler or making another settler before COL unless I have little to no barbs.

[TyShine]

If you have neither sea nor forest, then grow it. If you don't have grass either (sometimes this happens, heh), then go back to the start and work either 1 science, 1 prod or 1 food, in that order.




If they have no science consider saving those huts for horses. If they have no grass, forest, or science then defiantly save them for horses.

[TyShine]

more or less, but I don't care about the 100g settler or making another settler before COL unless I have little to no barbs.

I dont either unless I have fish. Assuming I got a cap(which if I didnt Im hurting).

[elthrasher]

more or less, but I don't care about the 100g settler or making another settler before COL unless I have little to no barbs.

Yeah, those things are situational. I do still like to get 100 gold if possible because then it's kind of easier to spend gold. Also sitting on 100 gold you don't really need makes for a nice emergency defense fund. If nothing else, it's a couple more settlers (almost).

If I'm having an okay game, I may be just a couple turns from 100 gold after I have my horses out because any city that's grown to 2 will just add to the emergency fund until I'm ready to start teching.


If they have no science consider saving those huts for horses. If they have no grass, forest, or science then defiantly save them for horses.

Yeah, that's good advice, but situational as well. You may not want the AI and definitely don't want another player taking the barb.

[FF-GTR]

With only 2 warriors out, anything to keep in mind about particularly early pressers? Notably arab / zulu warrior armies, aztec whatever?

I find that 3rd and even 4th warriors almost always pay for themselves, not only in gold but in map knowledge, chokes, etc. I realize the gold isn't there for mongols, but the map knowledge and defense and such is still relevant. Or do typically keshiks come soon enough that I am just being a worry wart?

And it seems like you don't bother with bronze for a while?

Also thoughts on settler walking specific to mongols? This is something I am actively trying to improve, with any civ. Just found Duke's thread. I am pretty hit or miss with it right now.

Also anything specific to mongols in terms of whether early galleys are a good investment?

EDIT Also any advice on how to stop muttering curses when a hut "in return gives you maps of the region"?

[HydroDragon]

Yeah, I thought fielding more warriors was always a good idea for the mongols because you have a greater chance to find those precious named tiles.

Plus they're basically walking gold which you can liquidize whenever you need it....

[HydroDragon]

I'd prefer a local map over a veteran upgrade....at least early on.

[MadDjinn]

galley - yes, useful, especially if near some islands since there might be an artifact there (and a must if you get shown a useful artifact by a goodie hut). usually after the HA's are moving, but I've rushed one (got 60g one game before HBR) and it pillaged lots of gold from goodie huts on islands.

BW - usually don't bother teching it. will backfill soon enough and frankly, I'll bait incoming armies so that my keshiks can kill them.

In one game I let the otherguy take my cap (hd just rushed a keshik) and then killed his inf. HA with my newly built one. silly american.

warriors - 2 is good. if you have more directions to search, more is good. it's game situational.

moving settlers - not unless you really know that you're in a bad spot (peninsula start). otherwise you will just keep running into barbs and that'll make them grow and take you longer to take them.

[elthrasher]

With only 2 warriors out, anything to keep in mind about particularly early pressers? Notably arab / zulu warrior armies, aztec whatever?

If any of those guys start close and are decent players, then you are in a lot of trouble. Additional warriors may be necessary at times, but you want to try to avoid this as much as possible. Remember, every two warriors could have been a keshik.


I find that 3rd and even 4th warriors almost always pay for themselves, not only in gold but in map knowledge, chokes, etc. I realize the gold isn't there for mongols, but the map knowledge and defense and such is still relevant. Or do typically keshiks come soon enough that I am just being a worry wart?

That is the hope and the goal. If you instinctively hammer four warriors every game, you'll be wasting a lot of hammers once you settle into a good pattern.


And it seems like you don't bother with bronze for a while?

Heck no. Are you going to build archers in a 1 pop city? You can't. It's too many hammers and you'll fall way behind. You have to not sweat the small stuff. Bring the fight to your enemy and that's enough for most players as most players aren't very good at warring on two fronts. You put your armies on his turf and the rest of the world is your playground.


Also thoughts on settler walking specific to mongols? This is something I am actively trying to improve, with any civ. Just found Duke's thread. I am pretty hit or miss with it right now.

The settler rush can be pretty powerful with the Mongols. It's maybe a little harder to pull off as you can't settle by a barb, pop it and have 50 gold to raise an army or two, but the rewards are greater. I had a Mongol game where I got zero barbs, but I managed to warrior-rush 4 pop Beijing and defend both that and my cap. A free 4 pop city with 4 sea tiles as the Mongols is amazing. Much better than a few barb towns.

You just walk and try to get 20 or 25 gold, then settle near an AI and do the normal thing. Karakorum doesn't have to be a good city, though it's nice to have two trees.


Also anything specific to mongols in terms of whether early galleys are a good investment?

They tend to be unexpected. Nobody worries about getting galley-dropped by the Mongols in the first 20 turns. But as usual, I wouldn't buy a galley unless I had an immediate use for it.


EDIT Also any advice on how to stop muttering curses when a hut "in return gives you maps of the region"?

Chant a prayer to the mario gods. Only they can help you when this happens.

[FF-GTR]

If any of those guys start close and are decent players, then you are in a lot of trouble. Additional warriors may be necessary at times, but you want to try to avoid this as much as possible. Remember, every two warriors could have been a keshik.

That is the hope and the goal. If you instinctively hammer four warriors every game, you'll be wasting a lot of hammers once you settle into a good pattern.


OK this makes a lot of sense. I am also probably arab centric, and their warriors are much more versatile. Even the germans who I also use a lot. I will change my view. I have to stop thinking arab FFA and start thinking mongol H2H...

I'm hearing some conflicting opinions on settler walking. I did some practice runs on King SP, and am too often finding myself circa 3200 with 10 gold or less, not settled yet, knowing where a ton of barbs are but nothing else...

[dukeblue1987]

OK this makes a lot of sense. I am also probably arab centric, and their warriors are much more versatile. Even the germans who I also use a lot. I will change my view. I have to stop thinking arab FFA and start thinking mongol H2H...

I'm hearing some conflicting opinions on settler walking. I did some practice runs on King SP, and am too often finding myself circa 3200 with 10 gold or less, not settled yet, knowing where a ton of barbs are but nothing else...

If you don't find gold in the first 2-3 turns you should definately be looking for any two tree spot to settle. If you get 20+ gold, you can keep moving and look for a walk-in.

That is at least how I would play them.

[FF-GTR]

If you don't find gold in the first 2-3 turns you should definately be looking for any two tree spot to settle. If you get 20+ gold, you can keep moving and look for a walk-in.

That is at least how I would play them.

That's hard though, because at that point, I feel like I just flushed 3 turns down the tubes. So I almost feel it's better to gamble that the next 3 turns will give you a 25g hut and you can see an AI border. Because with nothing but a 3 turn delay, I am going to lose against anyone good anyway.

EDIT Also are people looking to get 1 Keshik army or two before starting to tech?

EDIT2 Bleh clearly 2 armies or more from supplemental guide sorry.

[MadDjinn]

yeah, updated the other two threads already. (supplemental now shows 3 ways to get keshiks, so I'll just hit delete on a lot of that in this thread).

2+ keshik armies are the best starts. 1 if it takes 8+ turns to get it (1-2 huts and on a peninsula or other such things)

otherwise, yeah, keshiks before techs and defense (since they are your defense)

I will only really really rarely move my mongol settler. It's not worth it most times. If on a peninsula and you see mountains far far away, then yeah I'll move, but that's a rarity.

but.. once you decide to move, keep moving. your only hope at that point is getting gold and taking an AI cap (or a lucky walkin on a human player who walked the other way).

I've gotten 80g starts from walking around (all goodie huts close to original cap location) and I've gotten 0g (much more likely).

so it's up to the player to figure out.

[MadDjinn]

Ok, I've updated this thread as well.

there's still a bit more to think about, but overall it's better. (across the 3 threads)

[HydroDragon]

Hah, I'm actually undefeated as the mongols.

Just won 2 H2H games now.

First game was against Germans (I only saw an Indian A.I). I moved my settler....unsuccessfully. I got a named tile and saw 2 barbs but there were literally no trees and the map was covered with hills, mountains and deserts so I went back to the original spot. I saw India's borders but I had no chance of a walk in.

So now it's about 3200 BC and I have nothing. I build 2 warrior to go after the barbs and bank hammers in my capital. I begin researching HRB from the barbs. None of them have trees but one has a single grass tile and one has two grass so they're not too bad. Nothing happens in the meantime except me stealing a caravan from a barb india stole from me (it was for the best now that I look back, the barb was surrounded by crap tiles) so I eventually get a keshik army together at about 2000 BC. I go towards the indians only to find an injured german warrior army with my warrior. I retreat and wait for him to take India then swoop in with the keshik army. He quit.

Game 2, I am much more proud of myself. Against India this time. I try moving my settler only to find it's an island start with 1 barb and nothing else. The barb had 2 grass, 1 tree (the only tree on the island except my cap) and lots of water so it wasn't too bad. I hammer out a galley and put a warrior army on it. India's already taken an A.I but I find his cap defended by a single warrior so I risk the 3 vs 2.5 and get the cap and a veteran upgrade. Now, this is where it gets fun. While I was sailing the galley around I'd grown my cap and barb to 3 pop. With his 2-pop capital I could churn out around 18 trade per turn. I go for Bronze and Iron then put everything on gold and start churning out legions from his capital.

He comes with a horse army and kills my warrior army, but I beat back his Horse Army/Archer combo by killing the archer with single legions before forming the army and killing the horse army. I then march towards his 100g city with 2 legion armies and an archer. It's defended by a warrior army and it's on a hill so I put one legion army on the galley and sail around into the very heart of his empire. I popped a barb on a 2-tile island for the veteran upgrade then pop the legion army/archer/militia down on a hill between 2 of his cities. One's defended by a warrior and one by an archer. At this point I have one legion army in the middle of his empire and another 2 marching on his 100g city. He knows I'm in a strong position here so he throws everything at me. My 3 defense archer beats back his 2 attack legion and 1 attack warrior without a single wound. I take one of the cities and then he quits.

I'm really happy with myself there. If Duke or Madjinn reads this, thanks for the advice! :D

Edit: Woops, wrong thread. It should be in the H2H thread...though I suppose it's kind of relevant so I'll leave it.

[FF-GTR]

Mad, one point worth mentioning (I am about 90% sure of this).

You can't heal your HAs the same round you hit medieval. In two games I had just taken a cap the prior turn, and had wounded HAs, and hit "B" on them the same turn it showed the medieval announcement.

The following turn, my horses were still wounded! At first I didn't understand, but the second time it happened I did.

Since in that special hitting medieval round your horses still have 2 movement (even though it displayed the message saying you have +1 bonus movement), they act as if you had moved them one space. So the "B" button just waits one turn, rather than healing. So in that special round, you might as well move the horses, and get 2 movement, rather than nothing (it is easy to try to heal and not notice that it says "wait" rather than "heal", and you waste your turn).

I think there is similar behavior for Germany when elite legions auto upgrade to knights. At the least, they only get 1 movement the turn you hit fued - I have not tried healing that turn.

This is a minor point, but I can see how in rare cases when you are fighting another player early it could be a big deal.

[Matrix49G]

................................................

A side note:

The Mongols are the only civ that can have 2 cities side by side. This is done via settling beside a barb-hut. It’s not generally a good idea. But, if you happen to find a barb-hut that has 0 food tiles and you can get a great city by settling right beside it, then it can work. If the barb-hut city has 1 forest and 1 water tile to work, then you can use it to make defensive units while your main cities make offensive units (or tech). but, realistically this is a bad idea.

if you happen to find a barb-hut on a 2 tile island that has lots of resources around it, you may be able to make a case for dropping a settler beside the hut before taking it (Ie, fish on one end of the 2 tile island). it will prevent opponents from getting onto the island without the massive penalties for attacking. Even still, this is very rare to find later in the game.

I actualy had three cities next to each other just for the hell of it, and even did an 'X' formation with cities for the same reason.

S-B-S

S---S
--B--
S---S

Not a very good idea, unless you have the game dominated.

[MadDjinn]

Mad, one point worth mentioning (I am about 90% sure of this).

You can't heal your HAs the same round you hit medieval. In two games I had just taken a cap the prior turn, and had wounded HAs, and hit "B" on them the same turn it showed the medieval announcement.

The following turn, my horses were still wounded! At first I didn't understand, but the second time it happened I did.

Since in that special hitting medieval round your horses still have 2 movement (even though it displayed the message saying you have +1 bonus movement), they act as if you had moved them one space. So the "B" button just waits one turn, rather than healing. So in that special round, you might as well move the horses, and get 2 movement, rather than nothing (it is easy to try to heal and not notice that it says "wait" rather than "heal", and you waste your turn).

I think there is similar behavior for Germany when elite legions auto upgrade to knights. At the least, they only get 1 movement the turn you hit fued - I have not tried healing that turn.

This is a minor point, but I can see how in rare cases when you are fighting another player early it could be a big deal.

it's a fairly common glitch. I get it with other civs after taking cities sometimes when changing eras or something else happens.

and yeah, it's the same for upgrading units as well. not to mention units flipped from cities. Ie, flip a zulu city that has warriors in it, and you can move them 2 spaces on the turn you flip them.