Elizabeth

[Invader]

She's way too cliche, with the perfect body, the enourmous breasts and the cleavage. What I liked about earlier BioShock games was that people were normal, belevable looking people. Now, I disapprove of Elizabeth. Not the character as a whole, but the looks of her. Like I said, she's over-cliche. She looks like ever other woman in every other video game. BioShock avoided ALL of those cliches, one and two. If you were one of the lucky few-ish to ge the Special Edition BioShock 2, look at page 52 of the Deco Devolution artbook and read the comments. They avoided this with a passion. Honestly, I hope the way you made her look was just for marketing purposes. Make her look like a normal young woman, and really cut down on the cleavage, and she will look... real, and not like some sort of UBERPERFECTFANTASYBABBBE. You guys have two more years, so I hope it's just an early concept.

[Trie215]

I have to disagree, and of course only in a matter of opinion, but I LOVE Elizabeth. I wouldn't say she's "Superbabe", but she certainly is more curvy and buxom than any other Bioshock character. Also, she would be small waisted and appear big breasted due to her corset, which is what she's wearing in the trailer. She also looks different in the in-game screen shot so who knows who our Elizabeth will be.


And who says she has to look "real"? It's a choice of style. She doesn't look like a pornstar, and she doesn't look like Olive Oil either (Popeye's gal). Besides, cliche is the new original.

[Nyokou]

http://www.ugo.com/games/was-bioshock-infinite-always-a-bioshock-game?page=2 ('http://www.ugo.com/games/was-bioshock-infinite-always-a-bioshock-game?page=2')


[Adding "Deep Cleavage"]


There's also another article out there talking about the change of character design (and I think it's K. Levine) basically talking about the characters looking more stylized I guess rather than "normal". I don't like the idea either but then again, there are girls that look like Elizabeth. The only thing I have to disagree about her design is the hair...


Might as well re-post this...



Elizabeth's short hairstyle has kind of bothered me since I first watched the trailer. She kind of looks like Louise Brooks or a Baby Jane splicer which, to me, would place her almost 2 decades ahead. I really don't like it. Part of the reasons I loved the original Bioshock was because of its tie to real-world fashion/appearances. Therefore, I feel like Elizabeth doesn't really fit into this time period at all. She looks like a horrible fusion of 1920s/1930s hair and early 1900s fashion.


Perhaps there's even a reason for her hairstyle (I really hope there is) but it would've looked better longer or cut differently and even styled up extravagantly as was common in those days with hair ornaments/pieces or even a hat!


Any thoughts? Am I the only one bothered by this?

[iglegacy_rapture]

Two things I don't like about her, the breast's and her name. Elizabeth seems like such a bland name for a character of her magnitude, and well the boobs are a bit much.

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

No one knows really anything about Elizabeth's character to make judgements on how she is suppose to look. Obviously Dr Lamb would look silly the way Elizabeth is, because her character would not fit that look. I just think you need to find out what Elizabeth's background and character is before you make statements that her look is over-cliched. She's been imprisoned for 13 years, someone has hired you to go get her, perhaps she is a daughter/wife of a robber baron. I really have no idea about hair styles, but like I said its too early too judge either way.

[Rybow73]

Christ. I could care less if she looks good. However, I'd rather walk around in the game with character that looks like her instead of some hideous beast-woman from planet Uglifest.


I think people need to calm down about her looks. If everyone wants everyone to look sub-par, video games would have boring character models. It'd be kind of weird to save some important girl that looks like a high-school lunch lady.


It's not like she's sporting a double-double Triple Whopper bra-size like Lara Croft. Girls can be in video games with regular size breasts AND a good personality/character in the game.


People that are complaining about her breasts are thinking about her breasts too much. How 'bout them freckles that stand out as well? "Dammit! Now she looks like the Wendy's girl...with black hair! That's in-game advertising! She must look like Roseanne, because that show isn't on at a good time anymore, and they only show reruns!"


Leave Elizabeth to the designers. Maybe she'll turn out to be the Wicked Witch of Columbia at the end as a surprise twist.

[iglegacy_buddygz]

A bunch of gaming nerds complaining that a female lead looks too good.

What?

Although I do agree, you can look good with a little less fantasy and perfection.

But if you look at the game pictures, she looks a lot less fantasique than the trailer Elizabeth.

So don't worry....

[sh0dan]

invader said:

<h2 class="topictitle">Elizabeth</h2>

She's way too cliche, with the perfect body, the enourmous breasts and the cleavage. What I liked about earlier BioShock games was that people were normal, belevable looking people. Now, I disapprove of Elizabeth. Not the character as a whole, but the looks of her. Like I said, she's over-cliche. She looks like ever other woman in every other video game. BioShock avoided ALL of those cliches, one and two. If you were one of the lucky few-ish to ge the Special Edition BioShock 2, look at page 52 of the Deco Devolution artbook and read the comments. They avoided this with a passion. Honestly, I hope the way you made her look was just for marketing purposes. Make her look like a normal young woman, and really cut down on the cleavage, and she will look... real, and not like some sort of UBERPERFECTFANTASYBABBBE. You guys have two more years, so I hope it's just an early concept.



You are judging her just on her looks?


You don’t even know the poor girl yet. :p

[benporter]

You know why they avoided female cliches with a passion in BioShock 2?


Because they were all mutants.

[iglegacy_rapture]

http://i36.tinypic.com/2unx8p5.jpg


I see a little girl that is exposing her cleavage in a time where women were conservative. Sure it's a video game, set in a fictional flying city, but visually she doesn't look like she belongs in that time period.


For me it's not that she looks too good, it's that she doesn't look right. But what do I know, nothing. Perhaps when more is revealed she'll fit right in.

[Jub8Jub]

@rapture I agree with you. It seems like you can see her walking down the street if you look out you window.

[Trie215]

I don't know...

It wasn't as conservative a time as you may think. Yes, more conservative than today, but she is wearing a corset, which was meant to slim the waist line and raise the breasts. Even small breasted women would appear to be more buxom just by the nature of the garment, as the design will show you below. (It's also pretty close to what Liz is wearing in the trailer)


http://www.corsetsandcrinolines.com/Tidbits/November2004/pix/straightfrontcorset.jpg


It was the style around 1912 to wear these corsets. If you look at the picture below, it shows a woman of the era wearing a corset. The photo is a little white washed, but if there was dynamic lighting, you better believe she'd be sporting a mighty cleavage.


http://www.bluerosecorsetry.com/images/1912french_belle.jpg


If you were a stylish, attractive young woman, like Elizabeth, in 1912, you would most likely be wearing these type of corsets which would give her the appearance she has. Also, the waist coat and dress look appropriate to the time as well. I do think her hair maybe a bit moddish for 1912. It would probably be more extravagant and pinned up, or she'd be wearing a hat. Not quite sure on that.

[killer7ita]

She remember me, Catherine Zeta Jones (not so young) in Chicago:


http://static.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/41068-bigthumbnail.jpg


http://www.imusicdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/catherine-zeta-jones-broadway-chicago.jpg

[iglegacy_dannysal]

Since when is cleavage ever a bad thing (cliche or not)? Come on guys!! :)

[alteredego]

I think that people are over reacting. Look at Alyx Vance from Half Life. She looks hot, but she felt like a real person, not someone who always needed saving. (Looking at you, Princess Peach)

[Trie215]

alteredego said:(Looking at you, Princess Peach)


And she's not even that hot

[iglegacy_rapture]

drhhholmes said:

I don't know...

It wasn't as conservative a time as you may think. Yes, more conservative than today, but she is wearing a corset, which was meant to slim the waist line and raise the breasts. Even small breasted women would appear to be more buxom just by the nature of the garment, as the design will show you below. (It's also pretty close to what Liz is wearing in the trailer)

http://www.corsetsandcrinolines.com/Tidbits/November2004/pix/straightfrontcorset.jpg ('http://www.corsetsandcrinolines.com/Tidbits/November2004/pix/straightfrontcorset.jpg')


It was the style around 1912 to wear these corsets. If you look at the picture below, it shows a woman of the era wearing a corset. The photo is a little white washed, but if there was dynamic lighting, you better believe she'd be sporting a mighty cleavage.


http://www.bluerosecorsetry.com/images/1912french_belle.jpg ('http://www.bluerosecorsetry.com/images/1912french_belle.jpg')


If you were a stylish, attractive young woman, like Elizabeth, in 1912, you would most likely be wearing these type of corsets which would give her the appearance she has. Also, the waist coat and dress look appropriate to the time as well. I do think her hair maybe a bit moddish for 1912. It would probably be more extravagant and pinned up, or she'd be wearing a hat. Not quite sure on that.



The woman you pictured must of been a floozy... Here's what I remember from history.


http://i38.tinypic.com/2cz372w.jpg


But who wants a character dressed like that ^. After seeing the Catherine Zeta Jones picture the hair really needs to go.

[isoph0451]

Good God. Who cares? The game is two years away! I thought she looked cool, and didn't even think about this. Don't judge until you have seen her in gameplay footage. She might turn out to be a better character than Ryan (which would be hard) so you never know! Just...gah worry about why its coming out in two years and not now!

I feel like people are nitpicking the hell out of this game. Don't. Yeah its different than Rapture, but it's NEW, and it has more than a ton of potential.

Oh, and she doesn't look like an UBER perfect babe. She can be attractive, she is a woman.

And, you can't compare her to Rapture's women, they were probably all attractive before they became ugly, and seeing as Bioshock only shows ugly, spliced up morons (besides the good looking Andrew Ryan, of course ;) ) you can't compare her to any characters of those games.

[lukecz]

Art imitates reality in this case as she looks very much like somebody I know (no, not giving out her phone number). The other characters we saw during demo@GamesCom were "normal" human beings just like in Bioshock.

[Trie215]

I understand it was a more conservative time, but reading standard history books and the like, you will read of the more conservative people. I cant say for sure as I wasn't there, but I'm sure there was a more "colorful" group of unsung citizens whose standards weren't exactly the most christian.


I mean the world still considers America to be very conservative, and if you were to read a textbook about it, it would appear that way. But in reality, there are many areas of American culture that are not conservative. It's all about what information we have access to.

[Muskel]

I did not think her breasts were enormous compared to the norm these days. Huge breasts are cliche. You can even use motion controls to shake them around these days.


Beauty is only skin deep. This may be thier plan. Shes beautiful... you really start to love her...and then... she's really the devil. What a twist that would be. I'm not ruling it out.

[isoph0451]

Lol good theory. I kinda hope that she stays good though. Cause just from the concept of her character I really like her.


And I agree with you her breasts didn't even garner my attention, until I read this post. And now after actually looking, they aren't big. At all.

[ShockingBiology]

My two cents: her breasts aren't gratuitous, nor are they even really that large. The trailer just showcases them because she is leaning over the balcony and reaching for Booker, who is suspended slightly below her. Any outfit that was even moderately revealing would show some boobage in such a situation. The other screen shots I've seen also seem perfectly believable and not at all exploitative or salacious.

[sh0dan]

The game is fiction, not history. Like everything else in the world she is exaggerated. She would actually look “out of place” if she was perfectly accurate to history, when the rest of Columbia is exaggerated.


The history is only the inspiration, lets try not to forget that. I like her a lot, she looks vulnerable, mysteriously powerful and hot all at the same time. In my book that is a good thing. Real history be damned.

[isoph0451]

Amen sh0dan!

[FtRapture]

I think the time frame my prove irrelevant as it is in Columbia and as such may not necessarily follow the conventions of life on the land. I don't think she looks out of reason considering the nature of the game.

[assassin_snyper]

im sure however they choose to make her, the game is going to be awsome, and nobody is going to not buy it just becuase of the way she looks.

[benporter]

I think a lot of people here don't understand the physics of the corset. Even the push-up bra, for that matter.

[robot264]

i wasn't even paying attention to her face haha.

[cookiekiller6]

It's for Booker guys, if they change her appearance, Booker isn't gonna be happy.

[Juan29.Zapata]

cookiekiller6 said:

It's for Booker guys, if they change her appearance, Booker isn't gonna be happy.



She's still quite young, she's less than 20 years old if I remember well.


Anyway, I don't really see what's wrong with Elizabeth, but we really have not seen her in motion, so we can judge her better before complaining about her.

[Nintendoll]

I don't think she's oversexed, I just think her overall styling seems a bit off. Maybe it's the colors in the trailer, or how the clothing in the GI cover looks a little too modern...I mean, it's still good, and there's really not a lot of images/info on her yet.

[benporter]

We still have to remember that Irrational are trying to sell a game. They're hardly going to put some donkey-faced man-woman as one of the lead protagonists, are they? I still don't think she's as objectified as everyone is making out. She has breats (as women are wont to have), and wears a corset, just as was dictated by fashion back then.

[koutaf]

I love Elizabeth, she looks like a very complex character and surely she will be a good partner in the game. This aspect is an improvement from the previous games so I'm sure it will not disappoint.

[sac_boi]

I seriously hope they take away the makeup.

It was quite uncommon for women to wear makeup in public at the time. If you'll recall from your American History class, the "flappers" kinda started the whole wearing-makeup-in-public thing and those weren't going strong 'till the twenties.

Since it sounds like Columbia has been cutoff from the public for a time, and considering the degree of American exceptionalism in this game, I find it difficult to believe the citizens of the city would let Elizabeth wear her makeup during her capture and that she would take the time to put it on after DeWitt rescues her. :p

I don't care about her body type; that's nothing she can help. But, I agree with Rapture and that she should look a bit more like her time.

Then again, we still know very little about her . . .

[benporter]

sacboi said:

I seriously hope they take away the makeup.

It was quite uncommon for women to wear makeup in public at the time. If you'll recall from your American History class, the "flappers" kinda started the whole wearing-makeup-in-public thing and those weren't going strong 'till the twenties.



I don't know where your American History teacher gets his/her facts, but that simply isn't true.


http://www.ehow.com/how_4517104_apply-1910-style-makeup.html ('http://www.ehow.com/how_4517104_apply-1910-style-makeup.html')


Google 'Makeup 1910s' and you'll find a ton of links about it. Although, Columbia probably falls into 1900s since it's been cut off for a while. But even then you'll find a lot.

[sac_boi]

benporter said:



sacboi said:

I seriously hope they take away the makeup.

It was quite uncommon for women to wear makeup in public at the time. If you'll recall from your American History class, the "flappers" kinda started the whole wearing-makeup-in-public thing and those weren't going strong 'till the twenties.



I don't know where your American History teacher gets his/her facts, but that simply isn't true.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4517104_apply-1910-style-makeup.html ('http://www.ehow.com/how_4517104_apply-1910-style-makeup.html')

Google 'Makeup 1910s' and you'll find a ton of links about it. Although, Columbia probably falls into 1900s since it's been cut off for a while. But even then you'll find a lot.



My bad. What I meant by public was outside the theater and off camera. :o

[benporter]

sacboi said:


My bad. What I meant by public was outside the theater and off camera. :o



Even then women still wore makeup. Granted it was probably a lot less, but they did.

[Systemaddict]

I think this isn't a huge issue. First - it's two years away and lots can change. Second, her looks will mean nothing if her character is handled with a deft hand and given the depth she deserves. Nothing in Irrationals history gives me reason to believe this isn't the case and I won't let a couple screens and video taint my expectation that they meet that standard again.

[Aelle]

It's already been said a couple of times in this thread, but I just thought I'd back the corset argument up with a little personal experience.


As someone who wears a corset daily (I'm a waist trainer), I can promise you that the cleavage is quite realistic. Personally, I wear an underbust (which doesn't give you near as much boobage as an overbust like Elizabeth is wearing) and it still jacks my tits nearly up my nose. In comparison, an overbust actually pulls the flesh from under a woman's armpits and the sides of her breasts and pushes it forward, not to mention the generous lift up from below the breasts.


Overbust corsets EASILY make women look two to three cups larger than they really are.


As for the overall idea that Elizabeth is "too attractive"...


Bull☺☺☺☺☺☺.


She's pretty, yes, but on my college campus ALONE I can find women more attractive than her. Personally, the idea that someone would find her "too attractive" is a little shocking to me...I mean. I've been playing games for years and yes, I would agree that most female characters in games are only there to be eyecandy (the gaming world is still amazingly sexist--anyone see that PS3 commercial with the stupid girlfriend who thought God of War was a movie?). But I was actually very happy to see Elizabeth, a very average (and yes, attractive) woman in Bioshock Infinite.


I'm not usually one to raise the feminist flag in a gaming environment (really, it's pointless to do so anyway) but I really hope Elizabeth turns out to be a believable character who can stand on her own two feet. We need more female characters who are realistically strong (within the confines of the game), who aren't idiots or cold-hearted ☺☺☺☺☺es. It would be nice. Really.

[benporter]

aelle said:

It's already been said a couple of times in this thread, but I just thought I'd back the corset argument up with a little personal experience.

As someone who wears a corset daily (I'm a waist trainer), I can promise you that the cleavage is quite realistic. Personally, I wear an underbust (which doesn't give you near as much boobage as an overbust like Elizabeth is wearing) and it still jacks my tits nearly up my nose. In comparison, an overbust actually pulls the flesh from under a woman's armpits and the sides of her breasts and pushes it forward, not to mention the generous lift up from below the breasts.



Hooray! A real woman to explain how corsets work!

[RaptureMan]

felonious said:

No one knows really anything about Elizabeth's character to make judgements on how she is suppose to look. Obviously Dr Lamb would look silly the way Elizabeth is, because her character would not fit that look. I just think you need to find out what Elizabeth's background and character is before you make statements that her look is over-cliched. She's been imprisoned for 13 years, someone has hired you to go get her, perhaps she is a daughter/wife of a robber baron. I really have no idea about hair styles, but like I said its too early too judge either way.



I could look like Elizabeth if i wanted, with ADAM everything is... was possible... :'(

[Sans Frontieres]

So...this is regarding the Day 3 of Things to know about Infinite and I figured it would be best to post here:


I love everything IG does, I already have $60 worth of presidential flashcards allocated to buy this game. But these are just 2 observations from what I've heard/read:


1) With her not being able to get hurt or die, as she can "take care of herself"...what's the point of staying with her and 'saving' her? Why can't she just bust out of Columbia by herself? Can Booker just power run through the levels avoiding enemies, having Elizabeth just blast people?


2) And it's kind of a question...but it keeps sounding like Booker is automatically with Elizabeth to start the game. I mean, I know it's a long ways from being released and IG usually reveals few details as to the story, but...I'm assuming there's a period in the game where Elizabeth is just not around (thinking of the trailer) or no???

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

jayakers said:

So...this is regarding the Day 3 of Things to know about Infinite and I figured it would be best to post here:

I love everything IG does, I already have $60 worth of presidential flashcards allocated to buy this game. But these are just 2 observations from what I've heard/read:

1) With her not being able to get hurt or die, as she can "take care of herself"...what's the point of staying with her and 'saving' her? Why can't she just bust out of Columbia by herself? Can Booker just power run through the levels avoiding enemies, having Elizabeth just blast people?

2) And it's kind of a question...but it keeps sounding like Booker is automatically with Elizabeth to start the game. I mean, I know it's a long ways from being released and IG usually reveals few details as to the story, but...I'm assuming there's a period in the game where Elizabeth is just not around (thinking of the trailer) or no???



Some interesting points, you should probably start or put it in another thread though. This thread is more about Elizabeth's bust size than anything actually important to the game. Ive been throwing stones at this thread hoping it would die, its not working unfortunately.

[undeniably]

aelle said:

It's already been said a couple of times in this thread, but I just thought I'd back the corset argument up with a little personal experience.

As someone who wears a corset daily (I'm a waist trainer), I can promise you that the cleavage is quite realistic. Personally, I wear an underbust (which doesn't give you near as much boobage as an overbust like Elizabeth is wearing) and it still jacks my tits nearly up my nose. In comparison, an overbust actually pulls the flesh from under a woman's armpits and the sides of her breasts and pushes it forward, not to mention the generous lift up from below the breasts.

Overbust corsets EASILY make women look two to three cups larger than they really are.

As for the overall idea that Elizabeth is "too attractive"...

Bull☺☺☺☺☺☺.

She's pretty, yes, but on my college campus ALONE I can find women more attractive than her. Personally, the idea that someone would find her "too attractive" is a little shocking to me...I mean. I've been playing games for years and yes, I would agree that most female characters in games are only there to be eyecandy (the gaming world is still amazingly sexist--anyone see that PS3 commercial with the stupid girlfriend who thought God of War was a movie?). But I was actually very happy to see Elizabeth, a very average (and yes, attractive) woman in Bioshock Infinite.

I'm not usually one to raise the feminist flag in a gaming environment (really, it's pointless to do so anyway) but I really hope Elizabeth turns out to be a believable character who can stand on her own two feet. We need more female characters who are realistically strong (within the confines of the game), who aren't idiots or cold-hearted ☺☺☺☺☺es. It would be nice. Really.



While I can't speak for other console and PC-gaming discussion boards, I'd say that it isn't entirely anathema to speak from a feminist perspective here on these boards. I know, at least, that I would support it and think that it's perfectly relevant to address issues of sexism and objectification of women in games and gaming culture.


My take on the issue is that it's about the depth that they give her. I think that the promo trailer (as promo trailers are apt to do) tries to sell us something and advertisement in this country is inextricably linked to selling feminine sex/sexuality, and the few in-game shots of her I've seen seem a lot more 'grounded' (ha-ha, get it? they're in the sky!) than what was in the video. Hopefully this will remain the case. I know a number of people here have expressed this along with a general desire for avoiding the cliched macho ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ that plagues most video games, whether through hypermasculine men or hyperfeminine women.

[Aelle]

undeniably said:

While I can't speak for other console and PC-gaming discussion boards, I'd say that it isn't entirely anathema to speak from a feminist perspective here on these boards. I know, at least, that I would support it and think that it's perfectly relevant to address issues of sexism and objectification of women in games and gaming culture.

My take on the issue is that it's about the depth that they give her. I think that the promo trailer (as promo trailers are apt to do) tries to sell us something and advertisement in this country is inextricably linked to selling feminine sex/sexuality, and the few in-game shots of her I've seen seem a lot more 'grounded' (ha-ha, get it? they're in the sky!) than what was in the video. Hopefully this will remain the case. I know a number of people here have expressed this along with a general desire for avoiding the cliched macho ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ that plagues most video games, whether through hypermasculine men or hyperfeminine women.



It's good to hear more people are getting tired of overly sexualized men/women in games.


For me it's a thin line...I'd like to play a sexy female character (or have one in the games I play) but there's a difference between a woman being attractive and a woman who's obviously just there to be attractive. Like you were saying, depth of personality makes a huge difference.


I've had people argue with me before that more men play games than women and that's why they're marketed towards men, but I think it's just the opposite...games are marketed towards men and so men play them. I mean, take Blur for instance; it's your standard racing game (the likes of which I love, by the way) but it makes a point at the end of the commercial to say "Play like a big boy."


And men definitely get it on their side, too. I swear, the huge hulk-like psychopath character has been done to death. But the gaming industry is young...so hopefully it will evolve soon enough.

[benporter]

I think we're definitely going to see the gaming industry become a far more convoluted thing in years to come. Perhaps it may even lose the "game" tag - who knows? I think that the appearance of these so-called "art games" are a big indication of the direction some people are starting to take the industry in.


Where I think Elizabeth is no where near the Bayonetta-esque caricature of womanhood that a lot of people accuse the developers of making her, we've still got a ways to go insofar as women are represented in games. I don't think that's true of the BioShock franchise, however. It's been fairly balanced so far.


Regarding women in games, it occured to me recently that the problem may not be with the market at all, but with the designers. Wish fulfillment, anyone?

[Nintendoll]

As for make up, women in more metropolitan areas wore make-up in even earlier times. It was considered by more conservative people to be a bit outrageous, would send you to hell, etc.

[iglegacy_bigboss]

invader said:

<h2 class="topictitle">Elizabeth</h2>

She's way too cliche, with the perfect body, the enourmous breasts and the cleavage. What I liked about earlier BioShock games was that people were normal, belevable looking people. Now, I disapprove of Elizabeth. Not the character as a whole, but the looks of her. Like I said, she's over-cliche. She looks like ever other woman in every other video game. BioShock avoided ALL of those cliches, one and two. If you were one of the lucky few-ish to ge the Special Edition BioShock 2, look at page 52 of the Deco Devolution artbook and read the comments. They avoided this with a passion. Honestly, I hope the way you made her look was just for marketing purposes. Make her look like a normal young woman, and really cut down on the cleavage, and she will look... real, and not like some sort of UBERPERFECTFANTASYBABBBE. You guys have two more years, so I hope it's just an early concept.



Dont judge Infinite just cause Elizabeth is cute

[undeniably]

aelle said:


It's good to hear more people are getting tired of overly sexualized men/women in games.

For me it's a thin line...I'd like to play a sexy female character (or have one in the games I play) but there's a difference between a woman being attractive and a woman who's obviously just there to be attractive. Like you were saying, depth of personality makes a huge difference.

I've had people argue with me before that more men play games than women and that's why they're marketed towards men, but I think it's just the opposite...games are marketed towards men and so men play them. I mean, take Blur for instance; it's your standard racing game (the likes of which I love, by the way) but it makes a point at the end of the commercial to say "Play like a big boy."

And men definitely get it on their side, too. I swear, the huge hulk-like psychopath character has been done to death. But the gaming industry is young...so hopefully it will evolve soon enough.



I'd say more in to follow up but I think you've covered all the bases: ☺☺☺☺ macho he-man ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺, and there's plenty of evidence that women play all sorts of computer/console games (I live with two who probably play more on average than myself and my other male roommate). If the expectation of gaming companies is that they'll be making games for gun-obsessed War-Hero-America ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ fans, then of course that's who'll buy it, because no one else but that narrow group of people wants to play it. But if games are designed which actually presuppose some intelligence and some willingness to engage the world then you'll have a wide breadth of people fall in love with whatever you're doing. (The original Fallout is my internal template for this.)

[isoph0451]

I think after seeing the ten minute gameplay trailer, we can all agree that this post is now VOID. Because Elizabeth looks amazing. And does not look sexed up at all. :)

I'm already in love with her character.

[iamhim]

Yes the Bioshock team always tries to stay the the style of the era, but remember, this is not a real place. She has been in Columbia her entire life locked in one room. The the 2 factions are fighting over her power. Maybe the controlling faction wanted to make her look like a "wonder woman" type character, (a sexy super hero). Maybe since being locked in the room all of her life has made her a bit bored..., maybe she modfied her wardrobe just for something to keep her hands and mind busy lol. Any way you slice it, she looks amazing and the only thing I would change is her hair =/.

[zacharynathanson]

I have something to say, first of all. Let's not play the blaming game on Elizabeth's design. Sure some of you are complaining about her looks and her dress. Listen, stop complaining, let the people at Irrational games decide what they're going to do with the character design of Elizabeth. The team and of course, Ken Levine stays true to the core of the Bioshock franchise. So again, don't play the blaming game on the design of Elizabeth.

[Drkamina]

I think she looks fine the way she is, Its only the haircut that gets me, I somehow figured her hair would be longer.

[spoos]

love the sort of cartoonie style that she haves

[Juan29.Zapata]

drkamina said:

I think she looks fine the way she is, Its only the haircut that gets me, I somehow figured her hair would be longer.



Women in those times didn't have their hair all that long as you might think.

[gamertam]

Elizabeth's breast isn't the problem in my opinion. If anyone here had played Mafia 2. One of the achievement is to collect all 50 playmates posters. Trust me, boys everywhere are complaining about the those? I think not. I don't have major issues with Mafia 2 @ all.


Really, i could care less. Forget bout' it. It's not even an issue.

[daleader]

I think she looked very modiste for the time. The only thing that would have made it a cliche is if she had had lots of feathers which would have marked her as a ☺☺☺☺☺ or a prostitute at that time other then that spot on if not very very sexy. And plus isn't every one tired of the malformed mutated faces of the women from Bioshock i mean GROSS!!!

[Thuggish Splicer]

My point is simple.. cleavage=good

[ryanthomasbolton]

I think people make very interesting points in this thread but I think as long as she is accurately in keeping with the period like some of you have mentioned and that she works well as a game play mechanic and also as Booker's companion then shouldn't we all be happy chappies no matter whether she be a stereotypical gaming chic or not.... :S

[gamertam]

I've brought up this point in 2k forum and i'll bring it up here as well. I think it's valid and concrete question.


In the GI BSI issue. It's stated that there are two classes or factions in Columbia battling for Elizabeth for unknown reasons. The ruling class and the Vox Populi. While one class wants to maintain the status quo-a fervent devotion to God and country while the Vox Populi want to wipe out the nationalism and xenophobia that permeate the city and they will do so far as to blow Columbia out of the sky to do so Pg. 52 paragraph 8.


Of course my question is Why?

also who's this Vox Populi group that wants Elizabeth desparately on their side?


that's like having two guys fighting over a girl. I think we all should speculate on this Elizabeth character more in depth than just her breast size.

[redlink200]

I have to respectfully disagree. She is from noble background, so she must have some redeeming qualities at least, but as for the enormous breasts, from my experience with women, those are maybe in the High C's. C-cups are the average for American women, so shes average in that sense. Black hair is 2nd most common next to brown, then blond. Her eyes are blue i believe, many people have blue eyes. The curves are a result of the corset pertaining to the era, causing any fat, etc to be pushed up toward her boobs. Shes a little above average, but not other-worldly.


She's like that girl that lives next door that everyone knows is hot, but no one really makes a move because of the many people like her.

[ragingmudcrab]

redlink200 said:She's like that girl that lives next door that everyone knows is hot, but no one really makes a move because of the many people like her.



Brilliant.

[suicideking1990]

she actualy looks like snow-white, yellow and blue dress short cut hair but with an emphisis on the cleavage. this game is set to dazzle you with a perfect society in the sky. where as bio-shock the citizens had wear and taer faces, since there is no adam theres nothing to disfigure them and eliizabeth is meant to be the jewl of the city in this game i agree with you that overly pretty chicks are no-go in a game but this time it may be essential to the the game. like i said before bioshock attracted the eye with its twisted indivisuals, whereas B.S. infinite is a seemingly perfect society.

[rolanthunder]

I already love Elizabeth...she's a beautiful woman, cleavage and everything and has an enjoyable, attractive personality to boot...I think she fits in with the setting perfectly and will be a great companion throughout the game...after seeing the pic of those overly dressed women from the other page, Liz's dressing is indicative of the city she's currently in - Columbia which is different from any other place on earth and shows that she is her own person, which is always a good thing to me ;)


Having an attractive woman (looks and personality) in a game has always complemented it well...it adds to it, especially when she's ur companion...


She's not overdone are underdone...just right for BioShock Infinite :)

[rolanthunder]

gamertam said:

I've brought up this point in 2k forum and i'll bring it up here as well. I think it's valid and concrete question.

In the GI BSI issue. It's stated that there are two classes or factions in Columbia battling for Elizabeth for unknown reasons. The ruling class and the Vox Populi. While one class wants to maintain the status quo-a fervent devotion to God and country while the Vox Populi want to wipe out the nationalism and xenophobia that permeate the city and they will do so far as to blow Columbia out of the sky to do so Pg. 52 paragraph 8.

Of course my question is Why?

also who's this Vox Populi group that wants Elizabeth desparately on their side?

that's like having two guys fighting over a girl. I think we all should speculate on this Elizabeth character more in depth than just her breast size.



Vox Populi means "Voice of the People" and I think they'd want her to use her powers to help them overthrow the ruling class - government of Columbia...I kinda get the feeling that they'd want to capture and exploit her instead of seek her help sincerely...can't say for certain but what meets the eye at the moment is "no one can be trusted in Columbia..." so, we'll have to dig deep to see who's fighting the good fight (apart from us and Elizabeth) and who's not...I know that the plot is going to twist and turn like an intense mountain road and can't wait for it :)

[levyathyn]

Firstly, to answer Jayakers questions:


1) I believe Irrational more made it so that the focus of combat would be on you; Remember, Columbia's factions are fighting to control Elizabeth, not kill her. They would try to kill Booker and capture Elizabeth, not necessarily in that order.


2) It has been mentioned (but I forgot where...probably Game Informer) that the gameplay demo is not the start of BS:I. There will be an early part of the game, a short bit in, where you find Elizabeth aand stay with her from then on, barring, of course, plot.


Now, onto the meat and potatoes of this thread.


Elizabeth, when I first saaw her, didn't really strike my fancy. I thought she was just some kind of flapper girl with that haircut, and I hadn't played BioShock 2, so the series was kind of out of my mind. Nevertheless, I was hooked on this game by the gameplay demo, and I became aware of how well Elizabeth fits into the world, as well as how attractive she is. To me, she has the perfect blend of real-world physical beauty and, well, fictional video game/time period good looks. She isn't perfect, allegedly, but more telling, she's more a helpful companion than a simple escort mission.


I found myself actually worried for her when her nose started bleeding on the bridge. This is, of course, due to IG and their well-defined use of characterization, but to me, Elizabeth is a princess worth saving. Especially since she can hold her own. ^_^


Also, her name is roughly taken to mean "God's oath" or, surprisingly, "Daughter of God." Food for thought.

[ragingmudcrab]

levyathyn said:It has been mentioned (but I forgot where...probably Game Informer) that the gameplay demo is not the start of BS:I. There will be an early part of the game, a short bit in, where you find Elizabeth aand stay with her from then on, barring, of course, plot.

Now, onto the meat and potatoes of this thread.


This would make sense considering how it begins. It'd take a really long cutscene to get all the way past Booker and Liz meeting and the whole "thing taking her, gotta find her" thing.


I immediately found her to be likable. The banter between her and Booker is awesome, and I'm really looking forward to more of it. Like a Kevin Smith movie, but more themes and less Quick Stop.

[gamertam]

rolanthunder said:



gamertam said:

I've brought up this point in 2k forum and i'll bring it up here as well. I think it's valid and concrete question.

In the GI BSI issue. It's stated that there are two classes or factions in Columbia battling for Elizabeth for unknown reasons. The ruling class and the Vox Populi. While one class wants to maintain the status quo-a fervent devotion to God and country while the Vox Populi want to wipe out the nationalism and xenophobia that permeate the city and they will do so far as to blow Columbia out of the sky to do so Pg. 52 paragraph 8.

Of course my question is Why?

also who's this Vox Populi group that wants Elizabeth desparately on their side?

that's like having two guys fighting over a girl. I think we all should speculate on this Elizabeth character more in depth than just her breast size.



Vox Populi means "Voice of the People" and I think they'd want her to use her powers to help them overthrow the ruling class - government of Columbia...I kinda get the feeling that they'd want to capture and exploit her instead of seek her help sincerely...can't say for certain but what meets the eye at the moment is "no one can be trusted in Columbia..." so, we'll have to dig deep to see who's fighting the good fight (apart from us and Elizabeth) and who's not...I know that the plot is going to twist and turn like an intense mountain road and can't wait for it :)



Thanks to felonious for the many links of interviews and previews. After reading and seeing interviews and previews i came to a conclusion that your(Booker) is caught in between two factions. Much like Bioshock 1: you (Jack) is in the middle of of Andrew Ryan and Atlas or Fountain. The gamer or player don't know what exactly going on and which side to choose until the end. Just like from one of the interview or preview i can't remember exactly which one. In my opinion, that's what IG and crew wanted to created. Delivering a massive game with a jaw dropping gameplay and let the people determine for themselves. So for Booker who wanted to rescue Elizabeth who is captured by the ruler(s), i'm guessing Booker is sided with the Vox Populi?


But as far as if BS:I is in the same universe or even relate to one another is yet to be discuss.

[tombi]

she looks like the mother in the incredibles or something. i dont like it. a different hairstyle would definately suit her better just in terms of the fashion of the era.


Plus it just seems so unlike the bioshock makers to make so much emphisis on beautifying a female character like that

[hitwithfish]

I see someone that CAN CONJURE ☺☺☺☺ING THUNDERSTORMS! I wouldn't care if she were to wear a dollop of whipped cream, so long as she CAN CONJURE ☺☺☺☺ING THUNDERSTORMS!

[ragingmudcrab]

tombi said:Plus it just seems so unlike the bioshock makers to make so much emphisis on beautifying a female character like that


I think you're assuming that's what they are going for. I don't see any reason to believe this was a goal, other than that a bunch of nerds on a forum who love to inject their opinions into everything think she's hawt.

[Kahuna8000]

I just hope the whole BI game doesn't completely revolve around Elizabeth and really hope there's going to be some other BD (or in this case HM) and Little Sister dynamic aswell!!

[iglegacy_jordan]

For me.. its a good way, we are more mature. remember! the game is +17 and Rated M for "Mature" comm'on guys.

[iglegacy_mythic]

I think she looks fine...no need for a redesign.

[Juan29.Zapata]

kahuna8000 said:

I just hope the whole BI game doesn't completely revolve around Elizabeth and really hope there's going to be some other BD (or in this case HM) and Little Sister dynamic aswell!!



With the game being developed by Irrational, I think they'll do a very good job.


After all, Bioshock was about (initially) helping someone to get his family back, and we all know how that turned out. ;)

[reptio]

Did anyone stop to consider the fact that since Columbia is a very advanced - for that time period - place/city/whatever it is, maaaybe the fashion up there is a little different?


It could have been a deliberate choice to make her hair short b/c there is a lot of wind up in the sky (obviously) and it would get annoying to constantly need to push the hair out of your eyes. Not to mention how meticulous the animation would be to have to move around a big head of hair. I do agree that an updo hairstyle would be a wise choice to make, instead. If I lived on giant balloons in the sky, the last thing I would want to worry about is my hair flapping around all the time.


As for the boobs, they aren't that big. And she definitely has the corset figure of the times. I remember finding a picture of the skeleton of a modern-day woman, versus one who wore a corset her whole life, and it warps your body into a ridiculously tiny waist and squeezed any bit of chest up on display.


And as far as her being a character who doesn't necessarily look like an average woman... can you imagine how annoying (albeit hilarious) it would be to have an obese Elizabeth panting and waddling behind you all through the game?!

[darkrex2065]

its a


reptio said:

Did anyone stop to consider the fact that since Columbia is a very advanced - for that time period - place/city/whatever it is, maaaybe the fashion up there is a little different?

It could have been a deliberate choice to make her hair short b/c there is a lot of wind up in the sky (obviously) and it would get annoying to constantly need to push the hair out of your eyes. Not to mention how meticulous the animation would be to have to move around a big head of hair. I do agree that an updo hairstyle would be a wise choice to make, instead. If I lived on giant balloons in the sky, the last thing I would want to worry about is my hair flapping around all the time.

As for the boobs, they aren't that big. And she definitely has the corset figure of the times. I remember finding a picture of the skeleton of a modern-day woman, versus one who wore a corset her whole life, and it warps your body into a ridiculously tiny waist and squeezed any bit of chest up on display.

And as far as her being a character who doesn't necessarily look like an average woman... can you imagine how annoying (albeit hilarious) it would be to have an obese Elizabeth panting and waddling behind you all through the game?!



agreed

[Desperate Theif]

Well, you know, I think a lot of people would prefer her over some less attractive woman. Plus, if that's the concept they have for her they should stick to it, instead of changing it because it's "cliche".

[knarf]

I agree, in the original games she would have looked out of place and a bit silly, but Infinite is set in a floating city that's meant to be showing off how great america was, so maybe your typical good looking woman is the type of person who would actually be living in this city.

[timcroft]

Vengeful said:

Two things I don't like about her, the breast's and her name. Elizabeth seems like such a bland name for a character of her magnitude, and well the boobs are a bit much.



Elizabeth is the name of the queen of england... how does it not match her "magnitude" would you like her name to be ms.psychic? i didn't think so... and what's wrong with boobs? the bigger the better (well, until a certain point).

[timcroft]

drhhholmes said:



alteredego said:(Looking at you, Princess Peach)


And she's not even that hot



she isn't hot at all!

[ragingmudcrab]

I just hope Liz has good, witty dialogue. I love that in a female lead (looking at you Ellen Page and Emma Stone).

[Rybow73]

timcroft said:



<P>drhhholmes said:</P>




<P>alteredego said:(Looking at you, Princess Peach)</P>


<P>And she's not even that hot</P>


<P>she isn't hot at all! </P>


Especially since she doesn't even exist.


I'd rather have a stereotypical video game girl than a bland character model that I can make out of clay.

[gamertam]

Does Elizabeth have a last name? It's obvious she is an important character in Bioshock Infinite. Surely IG can't just left her hanging without a last name.

[Juan29.Zapata]

gamertam said:

Does Elizabeth have a last name? It's obvious she is an important character in Bioshock Infinite. Surely IG can't just left her hanging without a last name.



If she does have a surname, I don't think she even knows it, since she had been captive during many years. Or she knows it and we just don't know it :p .

[ragingmudcrab]

gamertam said:Does Elizabeth have a last name? It's obvious she is an important character in Bioshock Infinite. Surely IG can't just left her hanging without a last name.



Her full name is Elizabeth Naso-Sanguinante. It's Italian.

[Juan29.Zapata]

ragingmudcrab said:



gamertam said:Does Elizabeth have a last name? It's obvious she is an important character in Bioshock Infinite. Surely IG can't just left her hanging without a last name.



Her full name is Elizabeth Naso-Sanguinante. It's Italian.



Really? It's strange that a xenophobic culture would let an Italian-born girl into their city.

[ragingmudcrab]

She's Italian in heritage. But hey, she has superpowers, so they've got to make some compromise.

[ninjathatrocks]

I agree with some of the others, I don't like the hair.

[Juan29.Zapata]

ragingmudcrab said:

She's Italian in heritage. But hey, she has superpowers, so they've got to make some compromise.



Yeah, they suddenly forgot their xenophobia to get the golden girl that has the key to everything.

[uncle.gabe@hotmail.com]

Come on guys what do you expect....A woman who posesses extordinary power and your sent to rescue her from a city in the sky....yeah there gonna make her look like a hunch back of notredam. And if anyone knows how to make a character look there time-period, it's Irrational games, they have done there research, and Elizabeth's look is 100% 1912, and it doesnt have to be time period specific, it could be clothes from before 1912, I doubt Elizabeth is strolling the streets, checking out the latest fashions at Tiffany's, so she can look up to date for all those wild party's she goes to..I mean really come on guys, do you even know what your talkin' about??? How much research did you do? Putting pictures of women in 1912 is'nt going to change the fact either.. there were BILLIONS of women in that time period, and despite conservatism, most adorned beautiful gownds, and dresses not much different from Elizabeth's. Same with the hair. Do you have any idea how many hairstyles there are from different time periods. well her hairstyle was the first, from the effin stone ages..straight, short hair. Wow, it's the future of hair....NOT.

[Juan29.Zapata]

I wasn't complaining about her body or beauty, I actually consider that the most beautiful women are from the 50's and before that.


And I hope that that you didn't take my last post as sarcasm, I was just pointing out how they are so conservative with everything but forget it with Elizabeth. And yes, it's because she's the key to everything, but I just wanted to point it out.

[uncle.gabe@hotmail.com]

I apoligize Juan for sounding a little hostile.lol. I'ts a worthy question for the forums, I just think that a question like that directly strike's doubt on the integrity of Irrational's research capabilities. Which to me is a no no. Since there god and all. lol. Anyway's here's some info on the topic.


The haircut was called the "bob"hairstyle or "little girl" hair, in that time period adult women were frowned upon when adorning short straight hair until about 1920 when the war sparked up, but the style was widespread on young girls primarily ages 3-10, which would be around the age Elizabeth was imprisoned. The man who sends Booker to Columbia might give you the last photograph taken of Elizabeth as a child before she was imprisoned, sporting the "little girl" cut. which would be the reason she has that hairstyle. And the clothing, 100% perfectly matches the time period, especially the short jacket, Which was origanally made for women's fashion style in the late 1800's early 1900's. And like I said earlier, I highly doubt that the prisoner, Elizabeth, is getting the latest up to date fashion styles, so my guess is she would be sporting something that's, "Like, totally last year" in fashion terms.

[levyathyn]

I enjoy all of Elizabeth, from her appearance to her personality. Most important to me, since this is a video game atmoshpere, is her voice, which I assume I'll be hearing plenty of, and I found it soothing to the ear. When I first saw her, it's true I was skeptical about her possible involvement as a friendship/romantic interest, but she has a certain charm about her.


Personally, she reminds me more of the female lead from another good videogame, Uncharted 2's Elena.

[Juan29.Zapata]

levyathyn said:

I enjoy all of Elizabeth, from her appearance to her personality. Most important to me, since this is a video game atmoshpere, is her voice, which I assume I'll be hearing plenty of, and I found it soothing to the ear. When I first saw her, it's true I was skeptical about her possible involvement as a friendship/romantic interest, but she has a certain charm about her.

Personally, she reminds me more of the female lead from another good videogame, Uncharted 2's Elena.



I think that's the relationship that all video game developers want to get to with their characters.


I can still remember what some Kotaku commenter said about that but in AC Brotherhood: "It''s very similar to the relation of Desmond and... the not-Elena woman". I really laughed with that :D .


But I think that Irrational will top that with the morality system, since there will be a bigger emotional attachment to Elizabeth.


I don't you guys, but I don't want to hurt Elizabeth's feelings at all during the game :p .

[Muskel]

juan29zapata wrote:


"I don't you guys, but I don't want to hurt Elizabeth's feelings at all during the game "


Your gonna have to. There's something really deep between HIM and Elizabeth. She loves HIM. HIM is going to try and kill you for stealing Elizabeth. Also, it sounds like when you take advantage of those opportunities her powers create, she will be hurt. It's going to be an emotional ride for sure.

[Juan29.Zapata]

muskellounger said:

juan29zapata wrote:

"I don't you guys, but I don't want to hurt Elizabeth's feelings at all during the game "

Your gonna have to. There's something really deep between HIM and Elizabeth. She loves HIM. HIM is going to try and kill you for stealing Elizabeth. Also, it sounds like when you take advantage of those opportunities her powers create, she will be hurt. It's going to be an emotional ride for sure.



I know, but there has got to be a way to defeat him without sentimentally hurting Elizabeth. Because that's the morality system I've been able to identify so far (because I seriously doubt there will be little girls).

[Muskel]

and...the sad face :(

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy122/muskellounger/LIZ.jpg

[deadpool426]

I am kinda hoping that Elizabeth ends up being related to Delta's little sister in Bioshock 2... I enjoy the little references games have to their predecessors.

[ragingmudcrab]

deadpool426 said:

I am kinda hoping that Elizabeth ends up being related to Delta's little sister in Bioshock 2... I enjoy the little references games have to their predecessors.



I don't even want to put in the effort to explain why this isn't going to happen.

[uncle.gabe@hotmail.com]

Thank you mudcrab for saving me some time!!...Next...


Juan29zapata said:

<P>I know, but there has got to be a way to defeat him without sentimentally hurting Elizabeth. Because that's the morality system I've been able to identify so far (because I seriously doubt there will be little girls). </P>


Maybe he's not actually "defeated"....Recruited??? If "HIM" and Elizabeth have such a great bond, maybe, at some point in the game, I would think during a fight with him, Elizabeth stepts inbetween you and "HIM"..... I dont think "HE" is going to attack her to get to you. Maybe if "HE" see's that even she feels Booker means no harm to her, "HE" will fight alongside the two of you. Maybe Elizabeth convinces "HIM" that the Columbians are the bad ones somehow. This would also introduce a really cool gameplay element that, in my eyes, would help bring it up to Bioshock 1's standards. Flying around Columbia with a Shotgun and some "Incinerate" on the back of a flying beast machine. Very cool. But in any case, No matter what kinda "Vigors" or "Nostrums" he's using. I don't exactly think little ol' Booker's gonna be able to defeat THAT.

[Juan29.Zapata]

I don't know, what would be the challenge of the game then?


There has to be a certain catch about not fighting Him, or a benefit gained from fighting Him (of course with the consequence of Elizabeth hating Booker). But what could it be?

[uncle.gabe@hotmail.com]

ofcourse, ofcourse.... I agree...But at some point in game there has to also be some kind of benefit gained from Elizabeth and "HIM" having a relationship, or bond with one another....And listen to this from Ken Lavine:


"I think all BioShock games are set in a context of morality. They're not games about "the bad guys" and "the good guys." We're not going to talk specifically about if we're doing anything with that kind of system or what we're doing, I think it's safe to say we're not looking to repeat ourselves there because we think we've said what we wanted to say with that and I think that's been very well expressed in two games now. If we were to do something, it would be quite different."


iNTERVIEWER: "Are you concerned with disappointing fans that were really looking forward to a new IP from Irrational? Do you think there's going to be a backlash, like "Oh, it's a BioShock game? Why isn't it something else?"


"I think if we had made a game that's very similar to what we had done before and tread very similar grounds, I think there is definitely a chance of that. We never know what people are going to think, but our viewpoint here is: It's a franchise that people like; I think people love. A lot of people love. We had more to say to it but we wanted to do it in a way that we weren't bound by any ideas that had come before."

ME:

Infinite is going to have a new style of gameplay, just because he shot lightning out of his hands, does not mean that everythings going to be the same, like ken said, if there is a morality system in place for this game, it will be much different from the last two games. this could mean alott!!

[Juan29.Zapata]

Yes, YES! Exactly, it's really hard to say who's the bad guy in every Bioshock game.


"Morality and reality depend on the point of view".


The view that the player has it's that he has to go. What would the player think about certain a certain character in the original Bioshock if they knew about the truth from the beginning?


Andrew Ryan just wanted freedom for the ideals of man, (I'm not here to discuss religion topics and this is just an example) he talked (generally) about how man's will was controlled by politics, and religion. For example with religion: God gave us the free will, yet the Church imposes rules upon us.


In the case of Columbia, it's obvious that we all think that Booker is the good guy there. But lets think about the inhabitants of the City of Heaven, they think they are pure, and just want to be alone, yet a foreigner is invading their space, tormenting their way of living. Sure, there's some kind of civil war, but DeWitt's arrival just makes it worse for them.

[auditdirox]

She doesn't seem out of place or cliche, I dont see her as "in the wrong time period"...The only thing that i notice about her is her name...for those of us who participated in the SitS campaign, it should.

[Juan29.Zapata]

brettsir said:

She doesn't seem out of place or cliche, I dont see her as "in the wrong time period"...The only thing that i notice about her is her name...for those of us who participated in the SitS campaign, it should.



You mean the woman in charge of the campaign? The Community Manager called Liz?


Ah, who knows? It's hard to say if Irrational had it all the way like it is now, or they just wanted to refer to her.


Either way, it's a beautiful name for a woman.

[levyathyn]

The only part of Elizabeth that originally bothered me was her hair. On watching the gameplay demo, I can say that I think it makes her look kind of cute. It's not a complex look, but she pulls it off.

[Juan29.Zapata]

levyathyn said:

The only part of Elizabeth that originally bothered me was her hair. On watching the gameplay demo, I can say that I think it makes her look kind of cute. It's not a complex look, but she pulls it off.



Sometimes simpler is so much better :D .

[ragingmudcrab]

juan29zapata said:Sometimes simpler is so much better.



QFT

[9ice]

I think there's definitely a line that Irrational is walking in regards to Elizabeth's design.


When you create video game characters, the emphasis is definitely on creating characters that are appealing, both in their appearance, and their characterization. Sometimes they take it to an extreme, and you get characters that are really over the top.


I think with Elizabeth, the design concept is revolving around the idea of, "This is a beautiful woman that people will find physically appealing, but is also clearly identifiable with a more conservative time period." Yes, you can see Elizabeth's cleavage, which to me seems a teensy bit unrealistic, but she is also dressed in some kind of jacket covering her arms, and a skirt that comes down to her ankles. There's no leg in this time period (to the best of my knowledge), and Elizabeth is definitely reflecting that.

[uncle.gabe@hotmail.com]

Very nice...Not to mention Columbia can still have some qualities you would'nt find on the ground, maybe you could sport clevage in Columbia.

[SPINEBLOOD]

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy99/SPINEBLOOD/holimount_elizabeth.jpg

[Juan29.Zapata]

That's way to exaggerated...


She's not ugly.

[laforzadimente]

spineblood said:

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy99/SPINEBLOOD/holimount_elizabeth.jpg



lolol!!! I think that's a little overkill, although I'm sure there will be more like it in the future. I never understood the whole anime thing....


I find it somewhat amusing that we're saying such and such cleavage or hair styles are unrealistic for a time period containing men with robotic bodies, lightning shooting from hands and floating cities. We don't have any of that stuff now WITH the boobs and trim. There's obviously a suspense of disbelief, why not just enjoy it?


On a side note, upon closer inspection I can see her mouth is open but at first glance it appears to be closed with a milk mustache.

[uncle.gabe@hotmail.com]

laforzadimente said:



<P>spineblood said:
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy99/SPINEBLOOD/holimount_elizabeth.jpg</P>


<P>lolol!!! I think that's a little overkill, although I'm sure there will be more like it in the future. I never understood the whole anime thing....</P>

<P>I find it somewhat amusing that we're saying such and such cleavage or hair styles are unrealistic for a time period containing men with robotic bodies, lightning shooting from hands and floating cities. We don't have any of that stuff now WITH the boobs and trim. There's obviously a suspense of disbelief, why not just enjoy it?</P>

<P>On a side note, upon closer inspection I can see her mouth is open but at first glance it appears to be closed with a milk mustache. </P>


HA!! If Elizabeth had a "rack"(lol) like that, Booker would be too distracted to fight!


Elizabeth: " I think I have an idea!"

(Bullets whizzing by)

Booker: " ............(staring, hypnotized)"

Elizabeth: " HEY!" " PAY ATTENTION! "

Booker: " Huh!? Whaa?" " Oh, yeah." " Uh, whatever your doing..... " "Do it, slowly. "

Elizabeth shoots him an angry glare, before creating a molten ball of metal with her abilities.

Elizabeth: " GO, GO, TAKE IT! "

Booker: " .........." (again, staring...)

Elizabeth: " BOOKER! STOP STARING AT MY CHEST AND TAKE THE DAMN THING BEFORE I PASS OUT! "

Booker: " !!Huh? OH! "

Booker grabs the melting hot metal with TK, and sends it flying.............right off of Columbia, into open air, where it falls to the earth below.......

Elizabeth: " sigh " " We're never getting off of this city. "

She looks over at Booker....His eyes, glued to her breasts.

[ragingmudcrab]

Hahaha, I'm not sure if it was intentional but I am taking that picture as parody art. I lol'd.

[SPINEBLOOD]

ragingmudcrab said:

Hahaha, I'm not sure if it was intentional but I am taking that picture as parody art. I lol'd.



yea thats the way i took it to

[Juan29.Zapata]

There's no way that is not parody art.


It's funny and all, but I think that it's not fair to the (fictitious) character.

[laforzadimente]

juan29zapata said:

There's no way that is not parody art.

It's funny and all, but I think that it's not fair to the (fictitious) character.



I see it as horny young man art

[Krisi]

Wait you guy's dont like boobs:O

Well ye she is kinda of a glicthe but still she's a character and we don't know anything about her so lets just wait

[Juan29.Zapata]

Never said that, just that when they're too big, they get to the point they no longer are part of the women beauty but just.... You know.

[conantheking]

It's fine in my opinion. Remember Rapture was once populated by beautiful people and you see this in the opening for Bioshock 2. Rapture used to be the perfect city before it fell apart.


In THIS game however, it doesn't take place after the fall of Columbia but during it, while it still has that perfect style that Rapture once had.


So you will see beautiful people, clean environments, people going about their daily business such as the man feeding birds etc.

[Tallonenx]

teleportingman said:

glicthe



Har har.

[laforzadimente]

juan29zapata said:

Never said that, just that when they're too big, they get to the point they no longer are part of the women beauty but just.... You know.



I believe the word you're looking for is "Awesome"

[joonongenoemd]

laforzadimente said:



juan29zapata said:

Never said that, just that when they're too big, they get to the point they no longer are part of the women beauty but just.... You know.



I believe the word you're looking for is "Awesome"



I applaude you sir!


I agree on the person who wrote about the hair cut it has been bothering me awell its just not right... the cleavage its just meh she wears a corset so its allowed in my opinion :)

[iglegacy_insectswarm]

What?

I looks like something women would wear in a floating city above the clouds

[Juan29.Zapata]

Specially in those times. Come on people, none of us were alive during that time.


Although we should investigate more about women in those times, to see how it was.

[borrego]

sh0dan said:

The game is fiction, not history. Like everything else in the world she is exaggerated. She would actually look “out of place” if she was perfectly accurate to history, when the rest of Columbia is exaggerated.

The history is only the inspiration, lets try not to forget that. I like her a lot, she looks vulnerable, mysteriously powerful and hot all at the same time. In my book that is a good thing. Real history be damned.



Wisdom!

[syclone]

Is this really a debate? My god, what are you people doing?

[nickmerritt]

I like Elizabeth! But I may be slightly biased as my fiancée has similar features. Large eyes, short dark hair and big boobs :p

[9ice]

Yeah, I had a huge problem finishing Dead Space 2 for the sole reason that my girlfriend was named Ellie. Sometimes when games relate to your real life it's awesome, and sometimes you freak out because a video game character that reminds out of your old lady loses an eye.

[iglegacy_shelby]

Let's be real here, Elizabeth is a total babe.

[iglegacy_shelby]

1019ice said:Yeah, I had a huge problem finishing Dead Space 2 for the sole reason that my girlfriend was named Ellie. Sometimes when games relate to your real life it's awesome, and sometimes you freak out because a video game character that reminds out of your old lady loses an eye.



hahahahahahahahaha

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

Interview with Ken concerning the focus of some gamer's on Elizabeth's breasts - http://www.oxm.co.uk/37374/ken-levine-disappointed-by-focus-on-breasts-in-bioshock-infinite/ ('http://www.oxm.co.uk/37374/ken-levine-disappointed-by-focus-on-breasts-in-bioshock-infinite/') . He is disappointed, can't say I blame him either.

[laforzadimente]

I know I'd be disappointed. For real I didn't even notice it or think anyone would focus on it until they made a stink, cleavage is just a status quo these days.

[CyanicKnight]

What's wrong with this topic? Complaining about a little fanservice? I'd thought it'd be the other way around. :/ It's just an aspect of her, I can't wait for her character development to really shine through when the game comes out though.

[losstarot]

I knew this sad excuse of a thread would sooner or later anger the devs (http://irrationalgames.com/community/forums/bioshock-infinite-general-discussion/why-so-much-cleavage#post-116571 ('http://irrationalgames.com/community/forums/bioshock-infinite-general-discussion/why-so-much-cleavage#post-116571')). Oh and don't feed the topic there please, I just gave it for reference while I think there used to be some even worse made.

All I can say is that Liz is fine as they designed her.

[telbere]

No I really don't think she's "fine as they designed her", I'm concerned about the low res close up shots, and the devs going "fully fledged ai" while all my minds eye can see is "booker look at me" with a Lincoln mask on her head.

[progglerock]

losstarot said:I knew this sad excuse of a thread would sooner or later anger the devs



The devs aren't angry. Devs don't get angry over passionate fans discussing their games. That would be silly.


Ken simply said he was disappointed by it, which I find puzzling. His point was we should be focusing on her personality and her as a character; however, that's quite difficult considering we haven't played the game yet. Right now, all we got are big boobs, big eyes, and a corset. I really don't see how Ken can be disappointed by the inevitable topic of discussion considering what little we have to go by. It's like online dating: until you actually have lunch with the girl, all you really know until then is that she's cute and has a decent rack.

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

progglerock said:



losstarot said:I knew this sad excuse of a thread would sooner or later anger the devs



The devs aren't angry. Devs don't get angry over passionate fans discussing their games. That would be silly.

Ken simply said he was disappointed by it, which I find puzzling. His point was we should be focusing on her personality and her as a character; however, that's quite difficult considering we haven't played the game yet. Right now, all we got are big boobs, big eyes, and a corset. I really don't see how Ken can be disappointed by the inevitable topic of discussion considering what little we have to go by. It's like online dating: until you actually have lunch with the girl, all you really know until then is that she's cute and has a decent rack.



@losstarot -- I doubt that thread was the cause of Ken's comments, for the most part of the majority of people here could care less or aren't thinking about Elizabeth's rack. Game media and a vocal minority are talking about that instead of other relevant topics in regards to Elizabeth.


@progglerock - While I get your example, their is more that has been shown too Elizabeth than just her appearance -- she has spoken, we know some of her backstory, and she has one incredible game changing power. Nobody makes a big deal that Booker or characters like Nathan Drake are too good looking.


Overall I think its a vocal minority compared to an overwhelming majority - most people aren't giving it much of a thought.

[Nintendoll]

I'm pretty excited to see a strong female lead that doesn't act like a big baby or sit around being victim to her circumstances. And to be honest, she's STILL wearing more than most female leads. She's not in a miniskirt and has more than a small swatch of cloth for a shirt. I don't think she's overly sexualized at all.

[The_Noob]

None of you have realized that she has access to time travel.


She's been picking up outifits from alternate timelines, and that's why her dress looks slutty.

[progglerock]

felonious said:

@progglerock - While I get your example, their is more that has been shown too Elizabeth than just her appearance -- she has spoken, we know some of her backstory, and she has one incredible game changing power. Nobody makes a big deal that Booker or characters like Nathan Drake are too good looking.



I didn't get this point (by Ken) either. Booker is the player character. Unless Columbia is riddled with mirrors, all we're going to see of him is his hands and the occasional wanted poster drawing. Elizabeth is our companion. She is going to be the focus of the player's attention for most of the game, we can assume. I really don't see the harm in admitting that Elizabeth is cartoonishly beautiful for the obvious reasons.


And I can't agree with the Drake comparison. We all know most gamers are young males, so there wouldn't be much point in objectifying a male character. Plus, unless Drake parades around in an unbuttoned t-shirt and skin-tight jeans (revealing, of course, his magnificent bulge), I don't see the parallel.

[caramelcod]

I'm more interested in her face and personality than the rest of her body. I'm not a breast man myself, honestly. I like the humor that they've given her character, and I already feel a bit uneasy about what will likely happen to her as the game progresses.


That said, I hope the fine people at Irrational are prepared for the shock of the likely dozens of "Nude Elizabeth mods" that are certain to go up shortly after release. Let us weep in unison, Mr. Levine.

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

progglerock said:



felonious said:

@progglerock - While I get your example, their is more that has been shown too Elizabeth than just her appearance -- she has spoken, we know some of her backstory, and she has one incredible game changing power. Nobody makes a big deal that Booker or characters like Nathan Drake are too good looking.



I didn't get this point (by Ken) either. Booker is the player character. Unless Columbia is riddled with mirrors, all we're going to see of him is his hands and the occasional wanted poster drawing. Elizabeth is our companion. She is going to be the focus of the player's attention for most of the game, we can assume. I really don't see the harm in admitting that Elizabeth is cartoonishly beautiful for the obvious reasons.

And I can't agree with the Drake comparison. We all know most gamers are young males, so there wouldn't be much point in objectifying a male character. Plus, unless Drake parades around in an unbuttoned t-shirt and skin-tight jeans (revealing, of course, his magnificent bulge), I don't see the parallel.



I'll make an attempt at explaining the example. I can rattle off heroes from Drake to Marcus Fenix to some other buff beefed out hero which are player characters. How many overweight or generic average looking dudes do people play in video games. The fact that the majority are as you say young male gamers doesn't change the fact that their not playing someone who represents the normal person or themselves. The fact that a gamer is playing one of these heroes that doesn't represent the normal person or themselves isn't made a big deal out of, where in Elizabeth's case some people are making big deal over her appearance. I could go off on why that maybe the case but I'll refrain in not wanting to make overall statements and offending people who are preoccupied with a video game character's bra size.

[progglerock]

We're getting a little off-topic--mainly because we're talking about other games. There's really no sense in comparing anything else to BioShock. The reason why there's all this hubbub about the topic is because no one expected to see a hackneyed big-eyed, big-breasted female character in a BioShock game. Now, we all know she's going to be a fantastic character, and we're all going to look far past our first impressions of her, but you can't blame people for being a little put off by it. You can disagree all you want, and please do, but for someone like Ken to not understand why there is a discussion at all is a little baffling to me.

[japester]

I don't find her "hackneyed" at all. I don't see Elizabeth as unoriginal. Nor do I see her as some over-sexualized caricature (like Lara Croft, for example). Yes, she's attractive, and that was by design. Players are supposed to relate to her. Quickly, and ultimately, deeply. It follows logically that someone who is..attractive..by definition, you will be more attracted to. It's like a segment of gamers are preoccupied with wanting something to be as difficult and irrelevant as possible. In other words, let's make liking Elizabeth as difficult as possible by making her as average and/or unattractive as we can, as a test of the player's moral fiber. That way gamers who actually do relate to her (which is a core component of the game) can say, "I liked her despite the fact that she wasn't attractive!". People want to add a hurdle that serves no purpose. IG has limited time in the game for us to get to know Elizabeth, learn about her life, and become emotionally invested. Her looks should be a non-issue, and the best way to do that is to make her appealing. Which is what they've done. And they've done it without making her overly sexual. I suppose there are some who will disagree with that last comment, but those same people must think that nearly every female character in video games is also overly sexual. Because you rarely run into a heroine that isn't attractive.

[progglerock]

No one's arguing that Elizabeth shouldn't be attractive. The origin of this discussion is Elizabeth's cleavage (hence the aforementioned, much maligned thread), and the sort stigma it brings with it. The player/Elizabeth relationship in Infinite is going to be incredible, if not groundbreaking. However, the reigning champion right now is player/Alyx in Half-Life 2. Alyx was perfectly proportional and dressed like a dude, yet we cared so deeply about her through ridiculously expressive facial animation, acting, and story. They didn't "need" to exaggerate her looks.


BioShock is undoubtedly a very mature series with some really complex themes and ideas running throughout it. In a medium with a history of objectifying women, Elizabeth's design in a BioShock game seems a little perplexing. That's all I'm asking people to understand. You don't need to agree; just try to see where we're coming from. I certainly understand (and agree with) your positions, but I think the other side's point is quite valid, despite all the hate.

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

progglerock said:We're getting a little off-topic--mainly because we're talking about other games. There's really no sense in comparing anything else to BioShock. The reason why there's all this hubbub about the topic is because no one expected to see a hackneyed big-eyed, big-breasted female character in a BioShock game. Now, we all know she's going to be a fantastic character, and we're all going to look far past our first impressions of her, but you can't blame people for being a little put off by it. You can disagree all you want, and please do, but for someone like Ken to not understand why there is a discussion at all is a little baffling to me.




progglerock said:No one's arguing that Elizabeth shouldn't be attractive. The origin of this discussion is Elizabeth's cleavage (hence the aforementioned, much maligned thread), and the sort stigma it brings with it. The player/Elizabeth relationship in Infinite is going to be incredible, if not groundbreaking. However, the reigning champion right now is player/Alyx in Half-Life 2. Alyx was perfectly proportional and dressed like a dude, yet we cared so deeply about her through ridiculously expressive facial animation, acting, and story. They didn't "need" to exaggerate her looks.

BioShock is undoubtedly a very mature series with some really complex themes and ideas running throughout it. In a medium with a history of objectifying women, Elizabeth's design in a BioShock game seems a little perplexing. That's all I'm asking people to understand. You don't need to agree; just try to see where we're coming from. I certainly understand (and agree with) your positions, but I think the other side's point is quite valid, despite all the hate.



So when I make a comparison to Drake or Fenix from other games, we are getting off topic? Its okay for you to then make a comparison to Alyx from HalfLife 2 - also maybe its cause I played it years after on the Orange Box it just didn't carry that effect for me. Games, like any other media - movie, books, and so on is open to comparisons to each other, sorry not just when its convenient for your point of view.


I never thought one of the tenets for a Bioshock game is too make a bunch of Tenenbaum clones for female characters, must have missed that memo Thank god their wasn't a scene with Jasmine Jolene in the first Bioshock, she looked like a real babe on the posters, would have totally sullied people's experience with Bioshock [/sarcasm]. If you read the article, Ken goes on to explain Elizabeth's features are partly exaggerated so they will scale in the distance, maybe its bull ☺☺☺☺ - I'll take his word on it and unless someone is in game design probably don't have the credentials to say what he is talking about isn't true.


What perplexes me is that people make a big deal out of just her appearance, snapping to shallow judgements, I 'd be much more concerned over really bad voice acting or dialog which portrays her as a bumbling bimbo than just her outward appearance, since we haven't seen enough of her personality than judgements should be reserved in my opinion. I try to avoid making assumptions or presumptions based on appearance in real life, guess that carries through for me in games as well. In a medium where many of the people in it have been judged in life as nerds/geeks/dorks, as a form of negative misconception based on just appearance or a little interaction with. I'd expect a little more from those people to make the same shallow judgements they may have endured even if its just for a video game character.

[progglerock]

Oh boy. Shame on me for not learning my lesson about saying slightly negative things about a game on its official forum. :)

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

progglerock said:Oh boy. Shame on me for not learning my lesson about saying slightly negative things about a game on its official forum. <img />



Saying something negative is fine, its good to have credence to an argument though :D , knocking my game examples in the medium as going off topic and then supplying your own game example in your next post was too funny for me to pass up.


Your or anyone else who may share this view is not getting "hate" or crap for it cause your saying it on the game's official forum, your getting it cause quite frankly the view is not popular or sensible to the majority here. As an example its probably only slightly better than this thread here - http://irrationalgames.com/community/forums/bioshock-infinite-general-discussion/bioshock-infinite-anti-american-msg ('http://irrationalgames.com/community/forums/bioshock-infinite-general-discussion/bioshock-infinite-anti-american-msg')


As much as I'm a fan I am for Bioshock, I've gone on to say how I was unsure and not a big fan of the whole time travel aspect of the demo and possilbe the game or knocked the last level and final boss of the first Bioshock as being weak. Others have railed on aspects like vigors having charges, the limited weapon inventory, or some other aspect their unsure off and its fine cause they bring up valid points in the communities eyes. Views which aren't really seen as having much credibility, well I'm not going to say oh I see that view point and respect it, when I really don't just for the sake of it! It makes for an interesting conversation at least.

[japester]

I agree with felonious. While I'll be first to admit that we tend to get a bit...overzealous on this forum at times, there have been some good debates on here. There is no harm whatsoever in holding a contrary opinion and defending it in a discussion. The only shame is in posting a cop-out response like the one up above. ;)


I feel strongly about my personal opinions, but the only way to really understand your own argument is to compare it to others with an opposing view and listen with an open ear. In that regard, I welcome views like yours. You didn't change my mind, but I want to understand where you are coming from. :)

[progglerock]

The discussion was getting a little off-topic, but not solely because we were talking about other games (bad wording on my part). I guess I'm not too interested in discussing gender-equality in games as I am about the contrast of a (I believe) cartoonishly beautiful female love-interest in a series that I never thought would include such a thing (again, in a medium with an embarrassing history). I personally don't see Ken's argument about exaggerating her assets due to the whole distance thing on account of, as I said, its biggest competition (player/companion relationship-wise) not having had to do such a thing, with outstanding results.


The Alyx/Elizabeth comparison is an important one, I think, but I (rudely) dismissed other comparisons to other characters because I don' think those games were nearly as "important" as BioShock: meaning they were more entertainment than art, considering the complexities and themes and politics that BioShock is fraught with. I see BioShock (and Half-Life, I guess, considering what they were able to do with emotion) as a very mature series, and Elizabeth's design came as kind of a shock.


It IS a bias; I understand that. It's totally my own problem. It appears I prefer to care for characters in games who aren't so obviously attractive. In a way, it makes the relationship seem "deeper" when you eventually care for a character after some time, rather than be immediately drawn to someone due to their looks. Again, not saying one way's better than the other, or that I love my ugly girlfriend more than you love your pretty one (heh), I just don't like it when developers (for the lack of a better term) "pimp out" their characters to the player.

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

progglerock said:The discussion was getting a little off-topic, but not solely because we were talking about other games (bad wording on my part). I guess I'm not too interested in discussing gender-equality in games as I am about the contrast of a (I believe) cartoonishly beautiful female love-interest in a series that I never thought would include such a thing (again, in a medium with an embarrassing history). I personally don't see Ken's argument about exaggerating her assets due to the whole distance thing on account of, as I said, its biggest competition (player/companion relationship-wise) not having had to do such a thing, with outstanding results.

The Alyx/Elizabeth comparison is an important one, I think, but I (rudely) dismissed other comparisons to other characters because I don' think those games were nearly as "important" as BioShock: meaning they were more entertainment than art, considering the complexities and themes and politics that BioShock is fraught with. I see BioShock (and Half-Life, I guess, considering what they were able to do with emotion) as a very mature series, and Elizabeth's design came as kind of a shock.

It IS a bias; I understand that. It's totally my own problem. It appears I prefer to care for characters in games who aren't so obviously attractive. In a way, it makes the relationship seem "deeper" when you eventually care for a character after some time, rather than be immediately drawn to someone due to their looks. Again, not saying one way's better than the other, or that I love my ugly girlfriend more than you love your pretty one (heh), I just don't like it when developers (for the lack of a better term) "pimp out" their characters to the player.



+ 1 for saying its your own problem :D ! To touch on some of your points, as far as the medium having an embarrassing history then its important to go after the most flagrant examples like a Bayonetta or Tombraider old and new (The new Lara Croft in a demo was huffing,puffing,and moaning was described by more than a few as not quite sounding right and more like torture porn).


I didn't really know of any political vibes or themes from HalfLife 2 so unless their were and I missed it - HalfLife2 would be no different than a Uncharted game, just a character which you find more attractive - its personal preference for sure but doesn't make one over the other in terms of maturity. Their are just plenty of game's with attractive love interests, are their really any ugly male/female leads in the Final Fantasy series, those game's usually have an overarching political theme as well as a love story to them. Alan Wake is a fantastic piece of writing,story, and character yet Wake's wife is attractive and he is no slob.


As far as the first Bioshock's mature themes, well it also pulled at your heart strings as well. The whole Little Sister/Big Daddy relationship was there to pull at the player's sympathetic side-- as a parent would feel the same for their child. It was a morality system which really didn't have much to do with political theme Bioshock is known for. You don't have people saying it took away from the greatness of Bioshock, (they pretty much made the main story of Bioshock 2 off that idea)-- in fact for some people that was what made Bioshock so great, for other's it was the story of Rapture and Andrew Ryan. It appears that Bioshock Infinite is doing the same only through a romantic interest, if your in the game for political themes then Elizabeth probably isn't going to be a major factor either way. Other player's will be in it for a good love story. It appears to be similar to what was done in the first Bioshock but yet has to be different enough than take the criticism for doing the same thing.


The jury is still out and that includes myself -- if the voice acting/dialog/and story does not do Elizabeth's character justice then the verdict will come in on that side. Right now its premature to be doing that, it would be like saying guilty at a trial right after pretrial statements. Lastly, I'll say it again unless your in game design I don't know how you can discount the scaling in distance argument, perhaps in a bonus Dvd in the collector's edition IG can show how silly and weird a non exaggerated Elizabeth would look in the game if you were away from her for a bit.

[japester]

See, now those were two good responses! I upvoted both of you. :D


Proggle saying she holds Ken and BSI to a higher standard is a good one. I was privately having a conversation with someone where I made a similar comment, but I came at it in a completely different way. I said that BioShock is such a big name now, with so much excitement and acceptance by the press, that the wanna-be counter-culture kiddies may be trying to find fault simply so they can go against the "sheeples". The typical "I'm special because I dislike what everyone else likes" attitude. :rolleyes: In addition to that, though, we might have people like proggle who legitimately put Ken in a position where he MUST adhere to some higher standards than almost any other game designer. Interesting to say the least...


Then there's felonious' excellent point about the Little Sisters. That was the whole basis for the Dog in a Wheelchair running joke after all--make something as pathetic as possible. The entire character design for the Adam gatherer was based around the desire to instantly engender sympathy. Hence the use of little girls. Why not little boys? Or the somewhat ugly gnome-like creatures in the art book? Or any of the more alien designs?


Ultimately, it's difficult to debate because I personally don't see the root cause of the complaints. When I look at Elizabeth, I don't see exaggerated cleavage. I see a consistent art style among all the characters that is not hyper-realistic. And the character of Elizabeth, when I recall all that I've seen of her, is based on her eyes (discovery, fear, determination, delight), her husky voice, and her plight. Her body is a complete non-issue for me. If it's affecting me at all, it's on an entirely subliminal level. People complaining about it make as much sense to me as someone walking into a room and complaining that the air has 2% too much oxygen in it. It's hard for me to respond because it's outside my perception.

[isoph0451]

I guess I have to throw my two cents on this whole debate. For one, Japester and Felonious' posts are pretty interesting and very well thought out.


I just do not see the problem with Elizabeth's breasts, and to me she is not cliche' at all. How can you call her that if the game is not out anyway? None of us are famous video game directors, and we definitely did not create Bioshock, which is an emotional powerhouse that I love every second of. Infinite, from everything that has been shown, seems to also be an emotional powerhouse. DeWitt and Elizabeth's interactions, especially in the E3 '11 demo, are astounding and incredibly well acted. I'm with Levine, Elizabeth's eyes are gorgeous and her facial expressions are incredibly well done and will obviously be able to show emotion. Her character model, to me, as japester says, fits with the overall world and mood it has created. She's light colored, like the environment. Bioshock was set in an underwater utopia that became overrun with, essentially, mutated drug addicts. Of course no one looked attractive. It's a harsh, dark world where survival is key and nothing is roses. Columbia is harsh, but no one looks 'spliced up' or ugly. In fact, they all looked normal. Except for the face painting.


I just feel like it is too early to judge Elizabeth's "cliched" look. Women have boobs, and hers look like a pretty normal size in my opinion. Elizabeth's overall attractiveness, I feel, will create an instant attachment that will be grown upon throughout the game as her background and character becomes more fleshed out. Levine knows what he is doing, Irrational knows what they are doing, I have complete faith in them. Cannot wait to play this game and love every second of it.

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

isoph0451 said:

I just feel like it is too early to judge Elizabeth's "cliched" look.



Totally agree!

[cflocc]

For the record I have been getting very frustrated with the slow incursion of porn and smuttiness into the game world. The great Ken Levine, May he live a thousand lifetimes, said that he was almost disgusted with the amount that people were focusing on Elizabeth's breasts. Im not a prude by any means but goddamnit I do not like it when some prescious effort and time has been taken away from possibly making the game look and be better and instead pander to preadolescent boys fantasies about boobs. Sorry boys theres plenty out there and one day youll find yours. so tell me why they have to be such an integral part of the gaming industry now when realism is what the designers are trying for. And we can all bet that we would seee a huge increase in female players if these seriously fake woman in games got downtoned. I personally aplaud ken Levine for speaking out against this and I hope that all the other mature gamers out there take a stand for quality of gaming not just throw some slutty bimbos in when the game isnt that well made to cover there tracks. Rock On Ken, Keep up the good work

[laforzadimente]

cflocc said:so tell me why they have to be such an integral part of the gaming industry now when realism is what the designers are trying for



Gonna play devil's advocate here for a minute. Not really sure how it's becoming an integral part but while designers may be shooting for realism in the sense of Nolan giving his version of Batman a more tangible grasp in reality, the whole thing is nonetheless fantasy which is why a lot of people play to begin with. Nobody wants to play McD's and flip burgers on the Wii, they get enough of that reality already. As such, whether it's daydreams about superpowers, steampunk engines or a sexy sidekick, it all fits in the same bag in my mind.


</devil's advocate>


Anyway, I think I found how word got out


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsHMliU0WME ('http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsHMliU0WME')

[9ice]

There's an article about this over at IGN, I recommend you guys take a look.


http://games.ign.com/articles/121/1216144p1.html ('http://games.ign.com/articles/121/1216144p1.html')

[japester]

That article meanders a bit, IMHO. Makes it hard to follow. Maybe I'm just dumb.


Ultimately, though, I see the Soulcalibur V image and the shot of Elizabeth, and m gut reaction is, "Elizabeth has big boobs?!? Where is she hiding them???" Considering how corsetted up she is, she appears to have a fairly small to average chest to me. I just don't see the controversy. She's barely half the size of the gal in the slutty Soulcalibur image.


EDIT: How about to appease everyone they add a button that takes her character model down from a B cup to an A cup? Or makes her completely flat? That might work. To really demonstrate how awesome some players are, they could also have a toggle to add severe acne to her facial texture. Maybe they could earn an achievement for that. ;)

[Klawhammer]

It looks like the most popular DLC for bioshock infinite will be hair styles for Elizabeth and the man-hands McGee body model.


I cannot be the only one that adjusted the model of Alyx from HL2 because they did not like the way she looked.

[isoph0451]

I agree japester, the article is everywhere and sort of contradictory at times, and idk where he got the idea that Elizabeth's skirt was super short, because it's not even close to being short. She looks more normal than most video game heroines, on the line of, say, Elena from Uncharted. They are attractive, but not unrealistically so. They just look like...a woman lol

[cflocc]

Dont get me wrong guys what I meant when i said they are shooting for reality is that there are obviously games that are just way out there that no connections to our reality are made. Then there are games set in our past although possibly an alternate timeline such as this game or bioshock. it involves humans, and human activities (minus vigors haha) what i mean is that in these games that stick to our version of reality the immersion is far more immersive if you can believe it. And looking at some other posts and even some other literature elizabeths dress in this instance is far out of the times they are supposed to be in. What I have a problem with is that I love say fallout not because its a badass wasteland with hooters everywhere and babes but because its real, and I can get behind that. Even ken levine said that he was shocked at how much reaction and focus her bust got ( although im not surprised ) he had been more focused on the story and advancement of her character that her eyes told. This is a very artistic place to attend to while most games dont at all focus on female character development save perhaps uncharted. So I just think that we as gamers should not be encouraging that demeaning and lessening of our games and instead we should encourage designers like Ken to focus on character development and im sorry that not alot of guys are gonna be looking at eleizabeths eyes. We should be focusing on getting more girls interested and that means keeping games in the area of what games are supposed to be, fun immersive places to lose ourselves. If you want boobs use the internet which is pretty much just that. haha.

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

As far as the IGN article, IGN itself has their own Benny Hill section its called the IGN Babeology - http://stars.ign.com/ ('http://stars.ign.com/') or http://stars.ign.com/articles/121/1215576p1.html ('http://stars.ign.com/articles/121/1215576p1.html') . They will send you email and have wall papers of hot babes in skimpy outfits or costumes all for what reason? To draw traffic and make money so guys like Colin Campbell can get paid to write that drivel of an article.

[isoph0451]

Exactly.

[progglerock]

Oh, boy.

[IGlegacy_Felonious]

Not totally on topic but to highlight views of some gamers can check out this kotaku article -- http://kotaku.com/5875690/these-might-be-the-most-sexist-gamers-on-the-planet ('http://kotaku.com/5875690/these-might-be-the-most-sexist-gamers-on-the-planet') . Anyway interesting,funny, and a bit sad read all put together. On another note here is an article on kotaku - about fan complaints getting a breast reduction of a statue - http://kotaku.com/5875353/bioware-gives-mass-effect-statue-a-breast-reduction/gallery/1 ('http://kotaku.com/5875353/bioware-gives-mass-effect-statue-a-breast-reduction/gallery/1') . Not familiar with Mass Effect or that character so curious what that character looks in game, probably closer to the statue they came out with than the over the top one.

[laforzadimente]

Lol, that character is correct in species only, doesn't represent the character at all. She was nothing but serious and logical (almost like a Spock-type of character) in the game but it got all "anime-ed" up. Personally, I think the Mass Effect women are all designed around their asses with the skin tight hotpants, generous curves and lots of swaying when they walk. Not that I'm complaining of course, but it's interesting that the statue would get breast implants taking that into account.


Back on topic, I still don't see what all the huff is about. It's not like this game is Dead or Alive 3: Beach Volleyball and is designed around bouncing boobs making it a flimsy cover for borderline softcore porn. Let's just say for a second that Elizabeth was designed to draw attention to her breasts.....so what? It's just a small piece of the whole game. Does it objectify her a bit? Maybe, but so what if it does? Does it boost advertising capability? Probably, but so what?

[Evans0305]

felonious said:As far as the IGN article, IGN itself has their own Benny Hill section its called the IGN Babeology - <a>http://stars.ign.com/ or </a><a>http://stars.ign.com/articles/121/1215576p1.html . They will send you email and have wall papers of hot babes in skimpy outfits or costumes all for what reason? To draw traffic and make money so guys like Colin Campbell can get paid to write that drivel of an article.

</a>


Agreed.



1019ice said:There's an article about this over at IGN, I recommend you guys take a look.

<a>http://games.ign.com/articles/121/1216144p1.html

</a>


Ironically, if you go to IGN's main page now and see the thumbnail for that article, the title they chose to write for it is "BioBoobs".

[9ice]

@evans0305 - I saw that, can't say I'm too surprised.


Honestly, it's extremely difficult to talk about the nature of women in games without getting into a larger discussion about gender roles in society. No matter how much we try to mask it, we root for the attractive person before we root for the ugly person. No one wants to play as a character who's an overweight couch potato, no matter how great a personality he might have. Likewise, if your game has a female character, no one is going to like her unless she looks good. It's human nature, as superficial as that seems.


Media publishers tend to tailor their product towards the lowest common denominator of their expected audience. Specifically, the golden demographic of the 18-34 year old male. What does that mean? Breasts get bigger, skirts get shorter, waists get thinner, and girls get frustrated. A perfect example of this is Rosie Huntington-Whiteley in Transformers 3. She is introduced by a tracking shot of her ass in her underwear as she walks up a flight of stairs. The fact that she is a model, and not an actress should tell you everything you need to know about Michael Bay's reasons for casting her.


However, the light at the end of the tunnel of all this is that people will respond to quality in personality, whether that person is a character or a real person. There are lots of attractive people who are huge jerks, and people stay away from them when they realize the underlying nastiness of that person. Likewise, there are attractive people who do their best to be positive and interesting people, and other people will respond to that. "Come for the sunshine, stay for the people", to use an expression.


In gaming, we can see this as well. There are plenty of games with a half-naked whats-her-name on the cover, and nobody remembers them. There's nothing to them, and people dismiss them. Meanwhile, we remember characters like Elena and Alyx and even non-human females like SHODAN and GLaDOS because they are real characters. They have personalities, they are funny, they get mad, they stand up for themselves. That they happen to be attractive (or just have really sexy voices) ends up actually being the icing on the cake rather than the core attraction.


Elizabeth is certainly an attractive young woman. Her design is reminiscent of the Disney princesses with her corset and long skirt. (at least to me, anyway) Her design is intended to create an attraction, an immediate emotional connection that will be reinforced and evolved over the course of the game. I think the reason Ken Levine is a little frustrated with the attention paid on Elizabeth's bustline is because he's spent literally years building Elizabeth as a character, on pushing himself, the Irrational team, and Courtnee Draper to bring her to life as a real, emotionally complex person. He can see all this work put in, but we can only see the bits and pieces of her that have been included in the trailers and screenshots.


He's seeing the whole picture of her character, but we have to wait to the game releases to experience that for ourselves. I would say that in my experience, Irrational Games is one of the last developers I think we should expect to throw something in just for cheap titillation. Their games are works of art, and artists of their caliber don't do anything without serious thought and serious intent.

[Beanbag]

I see a little girl that is exposing her cleavage in a time where women were conservative. Sure it's a video game, set in a fictional flying city, but visually she doesn't look like she belongs in that time period.

Bioshock is all about anachronisms.

[MrAshpool]

Hmm, she's not a 'little girl' in the way I would think that was meant. She is conservative for a good chunk of the game. She changes costume and losses some of her innocence later on and it all works within the confines of the narrative. Extremely well. She's very much affected by some of the things that happen.

In a broader sense, as I've said in many, many similar conversations, it's often men that balk at these costumes and throw up these sexism arguments. And even then it's the vocal minority. Most of us have no problem with sexy women, especially in a game where the female character is so incredibly powerful, yet human.

I agree about Bioshock and anachronisms too :) It's one of those identifiers and almost steam punk. Throwing high/wierd tech at period reality! Love it.

[Clara Bow]

It'd be kind of weird to save some important girl that looks like a high-school lunch lady.

Why would it be weird? High-school lunch ladies need rescuing too.

[Clara Bow]

Honestly, it's extremely difficult to talk about the nature of women in games without getting into a larger discussion about gender roles in society. No matter how much we try to mask it, we root for the attractive person before we root for the ugly person. No one wants to play as a character who's an overweight couch potato, no matter how great a personality he might have. Likewise, if your game has a female character, no one is going to like her unless she looks good. It's human nature, as superficial as that seems.

It doesn't have to be that way. Look at the film "Shrek" for instance. It is almost impossible to sympathise with most of the beautiful characters in that film and of course one of the themes of the film is to learn to accept yourself and others whatever they look like. Of course Shrek marries Fiona even though she is an ogre and you cannot deny that most of the audience is behind them all the way. Some people just cannot understand this. I have heard of people who still think it had an unhappy ending. Heading off topic here, so I'll stop.

[archaven]

Not totally on topic but to highlight views of some gamers can check out this kotaku article -- http://kotaku.com/5875690/these-might-be-the-most-sexist-gamers-on-the-planet ('http://kotaku.com/5875690/these-might-be-the-most-sexist-gamers-on-the-planet') . Anyway interesting,funny, and a bit sad read all put together. On another note here is an article on kotaku - about fan complaints getting a breast reduction of a statue - http://kotaku.com/5875353/bioware-gives-mass-effect-statue-a-breast-reduction/gallery/1 ('http://kotaku.com/5875353/bioware-gives-mass-effect-statue-a-breast-reduction/gallery/1') . Not familiar with Mass Effect or that character so curious what that character looks in game, probably closer to the statue they came out with than the over the top one.

Lol same happen and goes with Elizabeth. Seriously why bother with Elizabeth cleavage when her chest size has been severely tune down to the extent of flatness? Might as well just cover it? Oh.. after that people will be complaining she's too cute and kawaii.. how about covering her whole face revealing just her big eyes? So IG rather satisfy a few minority fanatics on the internet than making the game that was designed and envisioned earlier?