Bioshock Infinite: Commence the Analysis, Speculation, and Debate (Spoilers)

[heavengoneaway]

I didn't see a new Bioshock game coming from Irrational (in an earlier post, I gave it 50-1 odds, which I'm glad no one offered to take), but here we are.


Core Concepts:


1) City in the sky, established as a symbol and function of American expansion: "Columbia is not an unknown secret city at the bottom of the sea. It’s a creation of an America transforming from a regional agrarian collection of states into a world power with global reach."


2) Fully developed protagonist, with a richer personality, deeper background, and more complicated goals than simply surviving: "You are Booker Dewitt...an actual character, and not a cypher who is unaware of his own identity. You’ve come to Columbia for a reason: to find a mysterious young woman named Elizabeth and bring her safely out of the city."


Quotes ('http://irrationalgames.com/insider/announcement-from-ken-levine/') from Ken Levine, general game information taken from the site ('http://www.bioshockinfinite.com/main.php').


I believe Columbia throws Rapture into an entirely different light. It means Andrew Ryan was not an innovator, but an imitator, given that the former was established in 1912 and the latter revealed circa 1950s. His version of society just chose the opposing venue of Columbia's infrastructure. It also raises the question of why/if Rapture was ever a secret: A city at the bottom of the ocean seems less incredible or impossible when one was built in the sky 40 years earlier.


Big daddies (or their antecedents) are present in Columbia, seemingly with their hearts where their heads should be, and it seems like telekinesis makes an appearance as well. Whether this power is limited to Elizabeth, or exists because of the strong, possibly supernatural connection between Elizabeth and Booker, isn't known at this point.


I have more thoughts, but not enough time to jot them down. What do you guys think, so far?

[iglegacy_ig.collin]

If this is going to have spoilers in it, please remember to use the spoilers bbcode.

[CodyLamp]

One thing I've read in one of numerous sites I've read today mentioned a seen where Booker , himself, used telekinesis to snatch a "football sized shell" out of the air, turn it around, and send it right back where it came from. So the player most certainly has TK. So far, it seems awesome to me. One thing I really dig is the bright open environment, its alot more player friendly than Rapture (not that I don't love rapture, but it's a pretty dark and dank place to be.) Also , the bright and cheerful environment , to me, makes the gore, blood and guts all the more shocking. I can't wait to see more and I am really looking forward to this game, really made my day.

[heavengoneaway]

It's interesting to see what Ken Levine, the driving force behind the creative universe these games take place in, thinks are the fundamental elements defining the Bioshock experience: "First, it has to be set in a world that is both fantastical and yet also grounded in the human experience. Second, it has to provide gamers with a large set of tools, and then set them loose in an environment that empowers them to solve problems in their own way." Speaking as a gamer, and boiling the essence of the first Bioshock game down to a couple definitive elements, I'd say the game distinguished itself as unique and well-made on the basis of its enemies (mainly the Big Daddy) and the abilities given to the player in order to combat and defeat those enemies (Plasmids and Gene Tonics).


The setting is absolutely a huge contributing factor. Rapture was and is emotionally engaging, authentically realized, and just flat out a cool place to discover and experiment in, but the setting is only what made me want to start playing Bioshock, not reach its end. The psychological and moral investment I made in connection with the Little Sisters, and in opposition to the Big Daddies and the overriding philosophy of excess that Rapture was built on, made me want to prevail over Ryan, Suchong, and Atlas. In other words, the setting introduced me to the world, the enemies and the conflict made me want to finish what I started.


When I think about Bioshock Infinite, I don't know if I'll be as engaged and driven as I was when I played the first Bioshock. Some of this lack of enthusiasm is inevitable; when the first iteration of something conditions you to expect uniqueness in setting, enemies, and powers, the next iteration can't be as exciting, because--based on the trailer--there will be versions of Plasmids, Big Daddies, and impossibly grand, inevitably doomed worlds. The natural repetition that comes with a series of games makes Bioshock Infinite seem diluted.


A turn-of-the-twentieth-century steam-punky skyworld, with a more mature, personal protector/prey relationship at its core could be awesome to play around in, especially if the development team spent a hell of a lot of time on designing and polishing first-person aerial combat, not involving jetpacks, planes, helicopters or blimps, but instead people flying at each other, bringing Plasmids to bear. I can see physical Plasmids being a definite focus, given the whole up-in-the-air aesthetic; there could be gravity manipulating attacks and abilities, making fantastic mid-air battles a tantalizing possibility.


On the other hand, we could end up with a pastiche of Ico and Half Life 2, where everyone talks in kind of/kind of not American accents in order to make the time period and the setting of the game seem more realistic and authentic.


Ultimately, I guess I'm excited for Bioshock Infinite at this point, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed in Irrational for going the prequel route, inevitably diluting expectations for what Bioshock could be, and possibly negatively affecting the impact and legacy of their earlier work in the process.

[barryman]

heavengoneaway said:

<h2 class="topictitle">Bioshock Infinite: Commence the Analysis, Speculation, and Debate (Spoilers)</h2>

I believe Columbia throws Rapture into an entirely different light. It means Andrew Ryan was not an innovator, but an imitator, given that the former was established in 1912 and the latter revealed circa 1950s. His version of society just chose the opposing venue of Columbia's infrastructure. It also raises the question of why/if Rapture was ever a secret: A city at the bottom of the ocean seems less incredible or impossible when one was built in the sky 40 years earlier.

Big daddies (or their antecedents) are present in Columbia, seemingly with their hearts where their heads should be, and it seems like telekinesis makes an appearance as well. Whether this power is limited to Elizabeth, or exists because of the strong, possibly supernatural connection between Elizabeth and Booker, isn't known at this point.

I have more thoughts, but not enough time to jot them down. What do you guys think, so far?



From what I've read, I'm not so sure that Bioshock Infinite takes place in the same "universe" that contains Andrew Ryan and Rapture. From Kotaku:


[Levine] doesn't call it prequel though and drew no narrative connections between the BioShocks we have played and the one his team is making. "I don't want to think about that," Levine said to me. "I don't think it's particularly constructive to have that conversation."


My guess is that any connections between Infinite and the original Bioshock will be more mechanical and thematic. The plasmids in Bioshock were a scientific breakthrough, a development uniquely born out of Rapture. To me, that just doesn't jibe with the world presented in the Infinite trailer, where these powers are used out in the open and seem more supernatural than scientific.

[iglegacy_unstoppable]

I found that you can see the heart through one of the mobs pretty interesting. What kind of new creature is th is that was made to seem like a Big Daddy but in the Joystiq interview Ken Levine says that there are no big daddies like in Rapture. There is a new monsters in place and it is definitely some kind of sick twisted type thing if you can see thru it's body into it's heart.

[undeniably]

This thought might deserve its own thread (and its something I mentioned in another post): one of the really fascinating things about the original Bioshock which also looks like its present here is the use of a utopia-turned-dystopia to examine the real, human effects of certain ideologies.


American exceptionalism - along with the free-market fundamentalism of the original Bioshock - is an idea that has had huge historical currency and was a determining force in the US occupations of Cuba, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Haiti, etc., and is seen as this sort of magisterial ideal when the actual effects of it were extraordinarily brutal. So we pickup a textbook in high school history and we read about this or "manifest destiny" and what do we understand about the actual realities of that idea? Infinite looks like it will give people some idea of the actual human costs of American exceptionalism, and at the same time dig into a very rich historical imaginary. Brilliant!

[heavengoneaway]

Barryman said:From what I've read, I'm not so sure that Bioshock Infinite takes place in the same "universe" that contains Andrew Ryan and Rapture.


This doesn't mesh with what is revealed in the trailer (Spoilers! highlight to read):


<span>Booker (presumably) is in the midst of being drowned or tortured in an aquarium containing a model of Rapture (complete with a scaled-down Big Daddy action figure).</span>


The presence of this, in the introduction to Bioshock Infinite no less, suggests the idea and impetus for Rapture exists in the same world as Columbia. In fact, I was thinking you may be in the office of the father or grandfather of Ryan, and the model represents the family's ambitions. Levine may not want to have the conversation about narrative continuity with Kotaku, but in his own statement, he says, "It’s a sequel. But it’s also not a sequel." To me, this suggests an attempt at continuity, but leaving yourself enough creative breathing room not to get locked in to one public interpretation or approach this early in giving wide exposure to the new game. Remember, the Bioshock universe is one where death is a minor setback and insects can colonize your forearms; I wouldn't rule out the possibility of alternate dimensions or time lines.



unstoppable said:What kind of new creature is th is that was made to seem like a Big Daddy but in the Joystiq interview Ken Levine says that there are no big daddies like in Rapture.


I think what we see in the trailer is (spoilers again--Mods, if "spoilers" is in the headline introducing the topic, do I really have to tag every other statement? I put spoilers in the banner to get around having to do this--highlight to read):


<span>apparently some kind of forerunner to the Big Daddy, in this instance, a smaller figure with more fine motor control (notice all the fingers closing individually when it grips Booker). The hand also seems very mechanical, almost puppet-like. Given the very odd circumstance of having its heart where we would usually see a brain covered by a face, this version of the Daddy may be more of a cyborg instead of a genetically engineered human designed or trained to perform a specific function (protection/escort)</span>


Big Daddies are synonymous with Bioshock, What we see and interact with in-game may not be the exact types of Big Daddy we're used to--what would be the point of a new game if it were so?--but there's going to be something in the game where immediately you, me, or Johnny Gameplayer will say "Hey, that's a Big Daddy! It's good to be playing a new Bioshock game."



undeniably said:one of the really fascinating things about the original Bioshock which also looks like its present here is the use of a utopia-turned-dystopia to examine the real, human effects of certain ideologies.


What you've pointed out is the main reason I chose "heavengoneaway" as my forum username for discussing all things Bioshock. Every Irrational game I've played is principally involved with confronting hope with reality, or in more drastic terms, taking the best of human ambition and producing the most tragic, horrifying results possible. Their thematic philosophy is like getting to the gates of heaven, only to find them barricaded by the ruins and bodies produced by the best of intentions gone awry.


Your political points are interesting (and debatable), but I don't think they should be addressed here. If I find you've started this discussion in earnest in its own thread, I'd be happy to discuss the issues you've raised at length.


Thanks for the great replies so far. I totally don't regret starting this discussion!

[iglegacy_darkness]

I think i saw Andrew Ryan in the first trailer. right after "Burden NOT Columbia with your CHAFF" poster. is it right ?

[heavengoneaway]

Missed one! Sorry, codylamp:



codylamp said:So the player most certainly has TK. So far, it seems awesome to me. One thing I really dig is the bright open environment...


TK was one of my Plasmid mainstays in the original--I maxed out Elec, Fire, and Ice (offensive-minded, I know) and always made sure to have TK hot-buttoned. I've mentioned this before, in-thread even, so I'll severely paraphrase: The Plasmids made the Bioshock experience for me, so I have high hopes for what we'll be wielding in Infinite.


One of my highest hopes for the new game, it being set in the sky and all, is all-out mid-air dogfights between combatants who can either fly thanks to Plasmids, or exert some domination over gravity. Guns, gear, and rides (blimps, jetpacks, rockets, etc.) are cool, but not as cool as being in the thick of the aerial action as a mere man, but one able to survive and thrive in mid-air due to his own empowerment. Almost everyone has had the dream where they're flying under their own power. How much cooler would it be to fly and, for example, shoot lightning bolts, firestorms, and blizzards out of your fingertips?


The brightness of the setting is a nice contrast to the bleakness of the action, so much so that the art direction (including character design: Elizabeth has some big eyes) could be described as satirical or hyperbolic.


I'd like to do an intense examination of the trailer, but first I'd like to get word from the mods if having spoiler in the banner to the thread is warning enough, or if I have to tag individual statements, because mark-up codes are a pain in the ass.


A few interesting tid-bits to strike off the list, while the iron is hot:


There really was a World's Fair in 1893, and it was hosted by Chicago (This was back when it wasn't the Second City to New York). It was titled the Columbian Exposition--no coincidence with regards to the new game. Source ('http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ma96/wce/title.html')


The primary conflict/relationship of Bioshock Infinite, per Ken Levine's summary: "You’ve come to Columbia for a reason: to find a mysterious young woman named Elizabeth and bring her safely out of the city. She will travel with you, interact with you, and react to the situations you cause to happen, and through your relationship with her, we’re able to tell the story of this new and amazing world."


This happens to be the main motivation of the original Bioshock, based on it's pitch ('http://irrationalgames.com/insider/from-the-vault-may/') to potential publishers: "The player takes on the role of Carlos Cuello, a down-and-out 'deprogrammer' assigned to infiltrate a religious cult on a remote island and 'rescue' a wealthy heiress from the clutches of the cultists." It appears Irrational is going full circle, or at least conjuring up some old ghosts, with Bioshock Infinite.

[heavengoneaway]

darkness said:I think i saw Andrew Ryan in the first trailer. right after "Burden NOT Columbia with your CHAFF" poster. is it right?


Possibly, but I doubt it. Infinite takes place in 1912, and the original Bioshock is set in 1960. The person referred to in the trailer looks to be an adult, which would make Ryan a much older man when you confront him in the first game.


Keep in mind, Bioshock is no stranger to genetic manipulation, not least of which involves monkeying around with the aging process. It could be Ryan (maybe a clone? His character is an eccentric contradiction, equal parts arrogant and insecure, enough to consider having copies of himself just in case), but I wouldn't hold your breath.

[MOVIELORD101]

Perhaps this is some sort of crazy prequel to the first game. Maybe this new sky city could've served as the inspiration for Andrew Ryan to create Rapture?

[elementdelta59]

my complete analysis is in my first look thread...

[iglegacy_ritean]

I just cut and pasted what I wrote on the 2K Games Forums Thread:


My friend sent me a text about this this morning; that is Bioshock: Infinite.


What's weird is that I was gonna Tweet the BS2 guys asking for any updates on the next installment that was allegedly due out in 2011!!??


CREEPY coincidence!


Anyways, I watched the trailer, and it looks okay-cool, but I'm honestly unsure how I feel about this.


As was already said, I love my underwater Ruins....Taking it to the skies would be, and is, the job of the "HALF LIFE" SERIES! (awesome games btw!) Play them!


I'm sure it won't suck, but I can't at this point say I'm a fan of the idea.


As I said before, I think going over underwater to the PACIFIC OCEAN , where maybe another Rapture Sister City was built might have been a better way to go with this.....Also, maybe playing from different characters P.O.V. (as in the "Half Life" Series - once again!), would have been better....


Anyhow, not much to really say. I will be getting it either way the day it comes out, and I'll ☺☺☺☺☺/praise it more then!


I think it'd be a good idea for all of us to really brush up on our EARLY 20th century history for this game, since it takes place in 1912! The score should be ALL Classical, which will be cool! I love the Blackest of the Black Metal, punk, Industrial, etc., but also always have loved classical....And the score is always so well done!


My two cents....

[iglegacy_ritean]

Btw, are the graphics going to be similar to the first game?


I wasn't really liking the "clustering" of graphics in BS2, especially underwater and in Dionysus Park to give an example...


Overall, the graphics were just better in the first game.

[undeniably]

Heavengoneaway -


I started up a thread with the hope that this discussion will get taken up in earnest. It's here:


http://irrationalgames.com/community/forums/bioshock-infinite-general-discussion/on-the-significance-of-american-exceptionalism ('http://irrationalgames.com/community/forums/bioshock-infinite-general-discussion/on-the-significance-of-american-exceptionalism')


And I'd be happy to hear what you'd have to add to it, even if we disagree.

[heavengoneaway]

movielord101 said:Perhaps this is some sort of crazy prequel to the first game. Maybe this new sky city could've served as the inspiration for Andrew Ryan to create Rapture?



Great minds think alike; I'm convinced Infinite is a canon-prequel, and its narrative is indicative of what we see in the original Bioshock, given what the trailer immediately reveals.



elementdelta59 said:my complete analysis is in my first look thread...



Copycat! :D And don't think I hadn't noticed your smooth little self-promotion...



ritean said:Anyways, I watched the trailer, and it looks okay-cool, but I'm honestly unsure how I feel about this.


As was already said, I love my underwater Ruins....Taking it to the skies would be, and is, the job of the "HALF LIFE" SERIES! (awesome games btw!) Play them!


I'm sure it won't suck, but I can't at this point say I'm a fan of the idea.


***

Btw, are the graphics going to be similar to the first game?


I wasn't really liking the "clustering" of graphics in BS2, especially underwater and in Dionysus Park to give an example...


Overall, the graphics were just better in the first game.



I'm oddly disappointed and excited at the same time. I wasn't anticipating a new Bioshock game from Irrational, given that another studio handled the direct sequel to the first game. We get what we get, I guess, and Irrational isn't in the habit of shoveling ☺☺☺☺, so I doubt it'll be bad, but at the same time, I'd be a liar if I said I was hoping for an up-in-the-clouds Bioshock.


Speaking of the graphics, the prospective release date for the game is 2012, so I would expect the graphics to be better than B1 and B2--I never played 2; I thought the first game said all it needed to about Rapture.


I know the trailer is CG, but we're given at least a template of the visual direction Infinite is taking. My immediate reaction to the look of the world and the characters is that it's more cartoony than what was presented in Bioshock; it's bigger, brighter, more colorful, and the character design (based on what we see of Elizabeth) is less realistically proportional and more stylistically exaggerated than Bioshock (maybe it's just me, but she seems bug-eyed). I'll feel more comfortable in saying whether I like the look of the game or not when I see the actual game up and running, not just a promotional piece. Stay tuned.



undeniably said:Heavengoneaway -


I started up a thread with the hope that this discussion will get taken up in earnest. It's here:


http://irrationalgames.com/community/forums/bioshock-infinite-general-discussion/on-the-significance-of-american-exceptionalism ('http://irrationalgames.com/community/forums/bioshock-infinite-general-discussion/on-the-significance-of-american-exceptionalism')


And I'd be happy to hear what you'd have to add to it, even if we disagree.


I saw, and I'm working on a response. There has to be a way to work the political discussion into speculation about Infinite--and I'm not just saying this to boost my own thread, given how interwoven the politics of the story are with the character customization and the game play. No worries, I'll come knocking directly.

[iglegacy_oamga]

The game is expected t come out in 2012, and theres a flaw in this. They are above Chicago(from the statue and MANY american flags) it woulds seem alittle shocking if the city could float to the Arctic Circle... I agree with Codylamb through, in the trailer "Elizabeth" used TK to bring "Booker" to saftey, also through the "Big Daddies" or giant mechical guards, like of something the Tin Man in the Wizard Oz much? But the idea of a new Bioshock gave me a "Nerdgasm"... If this does go through, and what street credit Bioshock already has, this will probably be pretty big...

[iglegacy_oamga]

heavengoneaway said:<P>Missed one! Sorry, codylamp:</P>




<P>codylamp said:So the player most certainly has TK. So far, it seems awesome to me. One thing I really dig is the bright open environment...</P>


<P>TK was one of my Plasmid mainstays in the original--I maxed out Elec, Fire, and Ice (offensive-minded, I know) and always made sure to have TK hot-buttoned. I've mentioned this before, in-thread even, so I'll severely paraphrase: The Plasmids made the Bioshock experience for me, so I have high hopes for what we'll be wielding in Infinite.</P>

<P>One of my highest hopes for the new game, it being set in the sky and all, is all-out mid-air dogfights between combatants who can either fly thanks to Plasmids, or exert some domination over gravity. Guns, gear, and rides (blimps, jetpacks, rockets, etc.) are cool, but not as cool as being in the thick of the aerial action as a mere man, but one able to survive and thrive in mid-air due to his own empowerment. Almost everyone has had the dream where they're flying under their own power. How much cooler would it be to fly and, for example, shoot lightning bolts, firestorms, and blizzards out of your fingertips?</P>

<P>The brightness of the setting is a nice contrast to the bleakness of the action, so much so that the art direction (including character design: Elizabeth has some big eyes) could be described as satirical or hyperbolic.</P>

<P>I'd like to do an intense examination of the trailer, but first I'd like to get word from the mods if having spoiler in the banner to the thread is warning enough, or if I have to tag individual statements, because mark-up codes are a pain in the ass.</P>

<P>A few interesting tid-bits to strike off the list, while the iron is hot:</P>

<P sizcache="13" sizset="68">There really was a World's Fair in 1893, and it was hosted by Chicago (This was back when it wasn't the Second City to New York). It was titled the Columbian Exposition--no coincidence with regards to the new game. Source (http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ma96/wce/title.html)</P>

<P>The primary conflict/relationship of Bioshock Infinite, per Ken Levine's summary: "You’ve come to Columbia for a reason: to find a mysterious young woman named Elizabeth and bring her safely out of the city. She will travel with you, interact with you, and react to the situations you cause to happen, and through your relationship with her, we’re able to tell the story of this new and amazing world." </P>

<P sizcache="13" sizset="69">This happens to be the main motivation of the original Bioshock, based on it's pitch (http://irrationalgames.com/insider/from-the-vault-may/) to potential publishers: "The player takes on the role of Carlos Cuello, a down-and-out 'deprogrammer' assigned to infiltrate a religious cult on a remote island and 'rescue' a wealthy heiress from the clutches of the cultists." It appears Irrational is going full circle, or at least conjuring up some old ghosts, with Bioshock Infinite. </P>


How would Rapture be, if this is supposed to be 10 years before Rapture was made?

[iglegacy_buddygz]

heavengoneaway said:



Barryman said:From what I've read, I'm not so sure that Bioshock Infinite takes place in the same "universe" that contains Andrew Ryan and Rapture.



This doesn't mesh with what is revealed in the trailer (Spoilers! highlight to read):

<span>Booker (presumably) is in the midst of being drowned or tortured in an aquarium containing a model of Rapture (complete with a scaled-down Big Daddy action figure).</span>



that spoiler isn't true, if you watch, the model is just a model of the 1889 chicago world fair,

and the figure is not a big daddy figure, but a diver holding a gian conesnail shell, from what it seems....

[heavengoneaway]

The Siege of Columbia ('http://kotaku.com/5607451/bioshock-infinite-goes-beyond-the-sea--into-the-skies') has my interest piqued (The relevant section of the link I'm referring to is the video captioned, "Above: A look at Bioshock Infinite swag given to attending reporters; hints about Columbia's secrets?").


Spoilers begin:


We see an image of a father and two children, a son and a daughter. The little girl is perched on Daddy's knee as he sits in his Man Chair, and the boy is hunkered down, busy playing army men. Father and daughter are reading together, possibly a history of Columbia, and she asks "Daddy, what did you do during the siege of Columbia? Worth noting is the absence of the wife/mother, and also that Columbia instills a sense of masculinity and patriarchy in its politics, "For Faith, For Race, for Fatherland (emphasis mine)." This is echoic of Imperial Germany, which rose to great power with the confirmation of Bismarck as Chancellor in the late 19th Century and was a chief instigator of World War I in the early 20th Century. The homeland is referred to as the Fatherland in Germany's national anthem: "Unity and law and freedom /For the German Fatherland /Let us all strive for that /In brotherhood with heart and hand!"


According to information provided at the press event, Columbia was established in 1900 as a monument to and vehicle of American achievement, empowerment, and elitism, and is characterized as a Death Star by Ken Levine, which could mean the living quarters, art, invention, and industry most readily on display in what's lately been shown of Columbia is simply a shell of camouflage meant to mask an uber-destructive weapons platform. Levine also says Columbia is involved in an "international incident," likely bringing the weapon to bear on an enemy country (probably--and not coincidentally--Germany, given the time frame of the narrative events, which would give motivation for Gernany's allies (and American enemies not aligned with Germany) to attack Columbia, either in an attempt to destroy it or hijack it.


Columbia being brought under siege after revealing itself as a steam punk Death Star would naturally lead to a social and military desire for Columbians to protect and defend their (crazy) ideals, as well as their homes and inventions, which is why we see more overt military propaganda in another poster, extolling residents, "Columbia calls you!...to the ramparts, Patriots ALL!" This aggressive message is fitted in a none-too-subtle collage of sex and violence, with a Marilyn Monroe-like illustration draping herself in the flag, and a gun crew working a massive artillery piece, seemingly aimed at nothing (or at least, the phantom enemy isn't important enough to be included in the image).


There's also an immigration/customs card belonging to a citizen from Istanbul, who emigrated to Columbia in 1907. The font is too cramped to make out specific details, but it's interesting to note that the primary information seems to be a catalog of his/her physical characteristics: hair and eye color, and more disturbingly, brain size. There are indications that Columbia is a segregated/racist society. For example, a prominent poster displayed in the trailer states "Burden NOT Columbia with your CHAFF!" This is accompanied by an image of a regal White woman, costumed in the American flag and cradling an idealized depiction of a White baby, flat-out rejecting someone who is attempting to give their child to her. The offered child looks misshapen and scrawny (it appears to be White, though I can't say for certain, which may indicate that race is not as important as strength, healthiness, and beauty). The idealized, judgmental woman is almost certainly a version of or reference to Miss Columbia, a patriotic symbol of America (think Uncle Sam, but stacked).


This desire for physical perfection hearkens back to the cataloging of brain dimensions on the immigration card. Phrenology scientifically correlates quality of character to the physical dimensions of the skull and brain, and was en vogue in early 20th Century Europe and America. Columbia may be a supremacist society, seeking to create and promote an idealized race of Supermen, similar to the Aryan philosophy of Nazi Germany.


Lastly, there's a sculpted facsimile of one of the power-ups in the game, a Murder of Crows tonic, which, when consumed, allows the player to summon a flock of ravenous killer crows to attack or distract enemies. It sounds similar to the Insect Swarm Plasmid in the original Bioshock, though it may be more powerful because they're birds and not bugs. This has nothing to do with the Siege, but is still kind of cool and interesting.


Spoilers/speculation end here. References (Besides Kotaku, which is linked to before the spoilers begin): German National Anthem ('http://german.about.com/library/blmus_deutschland.htm'), Phrenology ('http://www.phrenology.org/intro.html'), Miss Columbia ('http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08078/865947-42.stm').


So, what does everybody think? undeniably, I think I may have accidentally linked the politics with speculation about the new game.

[heavengoneaway]

buddygz said:How would Rapture be, if this is supposed to be 10 years before Rapture was made? that spoiler isn't true, if you watch, the model is just a model of the 1889 chicago world fair,

and the figure is not a big daddy figure, but a diver holding a gian conesnail shell, from what it seems....



Columbia is invented/established/opened in 1900, according to Levine. We're introduced to Rapture circa 1960, so it's more than 10 years. And Levine was specific about separating the settings of Rapture and Columbia in each game, though that doesn't mean someone on Columbia (a relative or possible clone of Ryan), can't get the idea to found Rapture.


But you're right about the model. I didn't know Columbia itself is the World's Fair according to information given at the press event. I thought the aquarium was a sculpture of what a hypothetical Rapture would look like while still deep in the planning and development stages (no bathyspheres) when (probably) Booker gets a very close look at it during the events of Infinite in 1912. Most likely, the model is a scaled-down version of Columbia's main city-center or administrative district.

[iglegacy_buddygz]

heavengoneaway said:



buddygz said:How would Rapture be, if this is supposed to be 10 years before Rapture was made? that spoiler isn't true, if you watch, the model is just a model of the 1889 chicago world fair,

and the figure is not a big daddy figure, but a diver holding a gian conesnail shell, from what it seems....



Columbia is invented/established/opened in 1900, according to Levine. We're introduced to Rapture circa 1960, so it's more than 10 years. And Levine was specific about separating the settings of Rapture and Columbia in each game, though that doesn't mean someone on Columbia (a relative or possible clone of Ryan), can't get the idea to found Rapture.

But you're right about the model. I didn't know Columbia itself is the World's Fair according to information given at the press event. I thought the aquarium was a sculpture of what a hypothetical Rapture would look like while still deep in the planning and development stages (no bathyspheres) when (probably) Booker gets a very close look at it during the events of Infinite in 1912. Most likely, the model is a scaled-down version of Columbia's main city-center or administrative district.



didn't say anything about your theory, I just pointed out that you were wrong about the model.

I personally hope this game distances itself from Rapture as much as possible. I wouldn't mind a tidbit of Easter eggs or nods for us original Bioshock fans.


EDIT: Ahh, i see, you were replying to the person above me. You just added his reply to my quote tag. That threw me off, sorry.

[barryman]

heavengoneaway said:

Booker (presumably) is in the midst of being drowned or tortured in an aquarium containing a model of Rapture (complete with a scaled-down Big Daddy action figure). The presence of this, in the introduction to Bioshock Infinite no less, suggests the idea and impetus for Rapture exists in the same world as Columbia. In fact, I was thinking you may be in the office of the father or grandfather of Ryan, and the model represents the family's ambitions. Levine may not want to have the conversation about narrative continuity with Kotaku, but in his own statement, he says, "It’s a sequel. But it’s also not a sequel." To me, this suggests an attempt at continuity, but leaving yourself enough creative breathing room not to get locked in to one public interpretation or approach this early in giving wide exposure to the new game. Remember, the Bioshock universe is one where death is a minor setback and insects can colonize your forearms; I wouldn't rule out the possibility of alternate dimensions or time lines.


I agree with the vast majority of what you're saying here. I'm thinking there might be some sort of alternate dimensional shenanigans going on. However I don't think you can take those images from the trailer as definitive proof of a link between the two worlds. From Shack News:



Shack said:Shack: In the trailer there some nods to the original BioShock, the Big Daddy figure, for example. Was that something added just for fan service or is that something connects these two universes? These games take place decades apart from each other. But is the original BioShock connected to Infinite?


Timothy Gerritsen: We did that because we wanted to say, "You know what, all the rules are broken." When that guy comes out and he's stomping along and he smashes that deep-sea diver suit. That's our way of saying, "You know what? All the rules are gone. This is a totally new experience." So for us that's all that was about. That's us saying to the fans that, you know, we wanted to create that, "What the hell, you guys here?"


We want fans to go, "Aw, ☺☺☺☺. They're going back to Rapture!" We want that. For us it's like, "No, man. You're going on a ride. You're going to see so much more." That's what that is about. That's not about tying it together. It's about, "☺☺☺☺ it! You're in a whole new universe now."


I'm not saying there is absolutely NO link whatsoever between the two games, but there certainly is a plausible explanation that the hints we've seen thus far are merely homages to Irrational's past work.

[heavengoneaway]

buddygz said:EDIT: Ahh, i see, you were replying to the person above me. You just added his reply to my quote tag. That threw me off, sorry.


No need to apologize, man. That was totally my fault.


Since both you and barry are commenting on Infinite's connection with the first game, I'll throw in my two cents: I think the new game can only be better the richer the story is, which, for me, means creating thick ties with the original Bioshock. If Levine/Irrational don't want to do this, who the hell am I to lecture them? But it seems a bit weird if you purposely set out to totally divest your new game from the established fiction of Bioshock, but call this new game Bioshock Infinite. I hate the name, by the way--as long as I'm ranting--when I first heard it, I thought we were in for a Bioshock MMO.


The "Big Daddy" figure referenced in the trailer is actually a simple deep-sea-diver with a snail attached to one hand (right before it gets stomped, you can clearly see the antennae/sensory stalks of the creature extending outwards. Good eye on that, buddy.

[iglegacy_buddygz]

heavengoneaway said:



buddygz said:EDIT: Ahh, i see, you were replying to the person above me. You just added his reply to my quote tag. That threw me off, sorry.



No need to apologize, man. That was totally my fault.

Since both you and barry are commenting on Infinite's connection with the first game, I'll throw in my two cents: I think the new game can only be better the richer the story is, which, for me, means creating thick ties with the original Bioshock. If Levine/Irrational don't want to do this, who the hell am I to lecture them? But it seems a bit weird if you purposely set out to totally divest your new game from the established fiction of Bioshock, but call this new game Bioshock Infinite. I hate the name, by the way--as long as I'm ranting--when I first heard it, I thought we were in for a Bioshock MMO.

The "Big Daddy" figure referenced in the trailer is actually a simple deep-sea-diver with a snail attached to one hand (right before it gets stomped, you can clearly see the antennae/sensory stalks of the creature extending outwards. Good eye on that, buddy.



Thank you ;)

and I agree, in a sense:

I've always loved it in things like Pixar movies, and in Jules Vernes novels, that there little bits of examples that hinted at the fact that every work was contained in the same universe. This also goes for Tarantino films, Sergio Leone films, ect. I would love to see some examples in this game that hinted at Irrational's single universe, BUT, I'd like it to be things that dont significantly have anything to do with the plot line of the game. It would be almost like they were two separate standalone societies on the same planet.

You get where I'm getting at?

[undeniably]

heavengoneaway:


You are definitely right about the interest in phrenology - along with eugenics and the 'scientific' racism which sprang up around the middle-end of the nineteenth century, as well as the militaristic masculinity which was a tool to get people to go along with the imperial agenda of the time. Anyway, I look forward to your response on my other post. You might want to check out these two links, to:


"BioShock Infinite Satirizes American Imperialism, in the Sky"

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/08/bioshock-infinite/ ('http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/08/bioshock-infinite/')


and


"The Bioshock Infinite Ken Levine Interview"

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/13/the-bioshock-infinite-ken-levine-interview/ ('http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/13/the-bioshock-infinite-ken-levine-interview/')

[heavengoneaway]

buddygz said:I would love to see some examples in this game that hinted at Irrational's single universe, BUT, I'd like it to be things that dont significantly have anything to do with the plot line of the game. It would be almost like they were two separate standalone societies on the same planet.

You get where I'm getting at?



I definitely get it, and based on what we've seen of the game and read/heard from the horse's mouth, it sounds like the development is leaning towards your interpretation: Referential or recognizable, but not explicitly linked or continuous.


I think if it's a Bioshock game, it has to have Plasmids and Big Daddies, and not exactly as we remember them, mind, because what would be the point of something new if it was the same old, same old?


Story wise, it needs to be unusual or unsettling, and be set in a location that is absolutely rife with satirical, dark, possibly humorous metaphor and cutting social commentary.


Even this early in the revelation of Infinite's content, to me, all of these components are present, meaning this is rightfully called a Bioshock game. Personally, I'd prefer if its connections to the original were clearly explicit, because I don't see how deepening and broadening the universe, while at the same time tying it to intimately familiar characters and themes (Ryan, Rapture, human commodities, existentialism), can possibly hurt either the game play or narrative spheres of the experience.



undeniably said:You are definitely right about the interest in phrenology - along with eugenics and the 'scientific' racism which sprang up around the middle-end of the nineteenth century, as well as the militaristic masculinity which was a tool to get people to go along with the imperial agenda of the time. Anyway, I look forward to your response on my other post.



.


Manipulation is a core theme of the Bioshock universe (social, psychological, physical, moral, and spiritual). Couching a racist, elitist agenda in equal parts quack science and jingoistic politics definitely seems appropriate for Bioshock Infinite, if it hopes to adhere to its lineage.


After reading Levine's RPS interview (thanks for the link), I've found an inroad into your discussion of Bioshock's politics: Levine repeatedly stresses the importance of an America in the midst of transformation into world superpower, which seems as good a starting point as any. I'm cooking something up, for sure.

[undeniably]

I mentioned this book in another post but I think you might be interested, heavengoneaway:


Taking Haiti: Military Occupation and the Culture of U.S. Imperialism, 1915-1940 by Mary Renda, which is a cultural analysis of the ideas that led the U.S. to occupy Haiti for 25 years at the beginning of the 20th century. The introduction is actually online:


http://www.ibiblio.org/uncpress/chapters/renda_taking.html ('http://www.ibiblio.org/uncpress/chapters/renda_taking.html')


It's fascinating stuff, and Renda does a good job providing an understanding of the hypermacho and militaristic culture which was so important for the idea of American exceptionalism. (The main criticism of the book is actually that it focuses too much on culture, at the exclusion of certain material realities - but those have also been covered in depth by other sources.)

[Rybow73]

ritean said:

Btw, are the graphics going to be similar to the first game?

I wasn't really liking the "clustering" of graphics in BS2, especially underwater and in Dionysus Park to give an example...

Overall, the graphics were just better in the first game.

It has been confirmed that they will be using the Unreal Engine 3 instead of the 2.5 used in BS2.


So, most likely the graphics will get a nice face-lift.

[undeniably]

I had another thought on potential source of inspiration - Edward Bellamy's Looking Backward. The book had a huge influence on the utopian thought of the time, even if the main current of ideas was very, very different from racial imperialism of Columbia and 'the White City'. Looking into American utopian ideas, whether from the left or the right might be an interesting thing to do in this case. I would not be surprised if Charles Fourier or some of his exponents will play a role in shaping the more utopian (rather than dystopian or failed-utopia) content of the game.

[iglegacy_ritean]

You guys are way too intelligent! lol


I love the games, but I am always learning something from your points of view, things I've overlooked, etc.


This Forum is not filled with "dummies", that's for sure!


Some of the ideas raised, continuity issues, etc. by you all BLOW MY MIND!


I'm not kissing ass, believe me, I'm not into that, but I figured I had to comment on those who post here!


Thanks! I'm learning a lot from you all! :)

[heavengoneaway]

undeniably said:Looking into American utopian ideas, whether from the left or the right might be an interesting thing to do in this case.



I think the key phrase you mentioned is "American utopian." The contemporary world-view of America is cynical, but there's this absurd "anchor baby" debate raging through the headlines, where there's (possibly manufactured) contention that foreign citizens, non-citizens, or criminals plan out pregnancies in order to have their children here, making the newborns Americans (and assuming all of the cultural and existential currency that the idea of being an American carries) on the basis of the 14th Amendment to the constitution. Given how strongly linked the society of Columbia is to anti-immigration policy (see the Siege of Columbia post), the social commentary of Infinite is freakish in its zeitgeist and relevancy.


I'm also fascinated by how America can never completely be shed of its mythology. Particularly in cases of fictional reference and examination, America is everything and anything but a place to live. The old saw is that the American Dream turned into the American Nightmare, but I think the more accurate way to look at it is that there are an infinite number of American Dreams, because there are countless dreamers out there, and whether or not they become nightmares depends largely on what kinds of desires and beliefs the dreamers bring with them.


For those interested in relating the current immigration struggle to the potential themes of Infinite currently under discussion, this link ('http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html') may prove interesting.



ritean said:Some of the ideas raised, continuity issues, etc. by you all BLOW MY MIND!


I'm not kissing ass, believe me, I'm not into that, but I figured I had to comment on those who post here!


Thanks! I'm learning a lot from you all!


Thanks for the compliment! I'm just trying to make the topic I raised relevant and interesting. It helps to know what I write is being read (and thought of as worthwhile). I really appreciate it.

[undeniably]

ritean said:

You guys are way too intelligent! lol

I love the games, but I am always learning something from your points of view, things I've overlooked, etc.

This Forum is not filled with "dummies", that's for sure!

Some of the ideas raised, continuity issues, etc. by you all BLOW MY MIND!

I'm not kissing ass, believe me, I'm not into that, but I figured I had to comment on those who post here!

Thanks! I'm learning a lot from you all! :)



If at least part of this is intended for me, then thanks. HGA has done a great job making this an interesting thread and keeping it going.



heavengoneaway said:

I'm also fascinated by how America can never completely be shed of its mythology. Particularly in cases of fictional reference and examination, America is everything and anything but a place to live. The old saw is that the American Dream turned into the American Nightmare, but I think the more accurate way to look at it is that there are an infinite number of American Dreams, because there are countless dreamers out there, and whether or not they become nightmares depends largely on what kinds of desires and beliefs the dreamers bring with them.



Something to consider here is that America itself is a mythology and, like many nationalisms and cultural groupings, one that has an enormous amount of ideological currency, enough so that despite it's imaginary origins, is now rooted in material facts. Have you ever read Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism, by Benedict Anderson? It's a pretty essential inquiry into the birth of the idea of nation, nation-state, etc. I would also suggest something I am reading currently, "Society Must be Defended": Lectures at the College de France, 1975-1976 by Michel Foucault for even deeper exploration of those ideas.

[heavengoneaway]

undeniably said:Something to consider here is that America itself is a mythology and, like many nationalisms and cultural groupings, one that has an enormous amount of ideological currency


My only amendment to your point would be to say, all nations are mythologies. Every invention stems from inspiration and tradition, and I would argue these are the two main ingredients forming any myth, and what are nations if not inventions? Personally claiming something so much more vast and durable than yourself--say, by stabbing a flag into the earth and saying "This is mine!"--is an exercise in fantasy and futility.


America doesn't belong to people who choose to call themselves Americans, and neither does the nation of any other nationalist. All of these places are, at best, being leased, under temporary names, to temporary tenants.


Nationalism is one of the most insubstantial and arrogant philosophies I can name, but as long as there are people living in a nation who don't want you there, or who don't want to be made to leave themselves, I believe it'll (continue to) be the primary cause of world conflict, to the point where, someday, there will be no more nations, and no more national conflicts--because everyone who wanted to take, keep, or promote them will be dead, and the earth will keep spinning, with no one left to name it, much less divide it up.


I live in America, but I don't think America is mine. At the same time, I have a place to live, and the choice of whether or to claim it or not. People without these options can assign more value to them, because they'd like to have them, and are in many cases opposed by someone else who is trying to get them. "I won't stand for this/them/that in my America!" is a huge promoter of conflict, but it has nothing on "You know that thing you want? You can't have it, because I want it."


I'll file those books you've mentioned in my to-read-before-the-world-ends drawer (it's pretty full). I remember reading Foucault's What is an Author? ('http://www.continental-philosophy.org/2007/05/29/e-texts-foucault-what-is-an-author/') as an undergrad; the kid had some talent, as I recall.


How to relate this to Bioshock Infinite... :eek: Hey, did you know the game is about immigration, and immigration is connected to nationalism? Well, undeniably and I were just talking about those things! On-Topic, FTW!

[heavengoneaway]

Levine clarifies ('http://kotaku.com/5614097/it-would-be-dishonest-to-say-this-is-not-bioshock?skyline=true&s=i') the Bioshockness of Bioshock Infinite. He mentions his fundamental components of what makes a Bioshock experience--discussed and debated at greater length earlier in this thread--but I'll summarize: The setting comes first, needing to be fantastic, energetic, and in some ways impossible. But at the same time, the craziest ideas needed to spring from roots that are embedded in a contemporary social reality, for example, elitism, racism, industrialization, immigration, and warfare. Second, the game play needs to be defined by a versatility that is under the thrall of the player. Whether offensive-minded (Elec, Incinerate, etc.), defensive-minded (Enrage, hacking, Hypnotize, etc.), the choice of what to do, when to do it, and how it ultimately gets done, is up to whomever is playing the game. I disagree with using these two quantities as the yard stick for measuring exactly how Bioshock something is, but I think the most important thing to take from this reassurance is that Irrational is aware of what they're working with, and that what they're currently up to will inevitably be compared to what they've done before; legacy is nothing new to these developers.


Elizabeth is given more depth of examination. "The computer-controlled Elizabeth is also a storytelling experiment, according to Levine: 'There's no component of squad commands with her in the game. She is a self-driven entity. She will react if you go this way or that way on the field...She sets you up to do things. We don't want her driving the game for you. Ever.'" They use Left 4 Dead as a comparative device, but to me this sounds much more like Alyx Vance ('http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Alyx_Vance'), from Half-Life 2. I dunno about you, but using her for character and game play scenario inspiration can't hurt, as far as I'm concerned.


The Skyline also gets some more juicy tid-bits of info: "It is our vehicle...There's going to be line after line. You're going to be jumping between them. It's a way to have you move very fast in the world, to have you cover large distances and to have enemies cover large distances that wasn't flat. The problem with flight is that, it's a shooter, we really wanted you to be in control of your shooting so there's a degree of being on a rollercoaster with guns." My most anticipated (possible) feature of Infinite game play is mid-air dogfights without any vehicles (flying as a person due to the influence of Plasmids, Tonics, or the ability to manipulate gravity). The Skyline sounds distressingly like a simple on-rails digression from the standard run-and-gun tactics. A relevant game play example leaping to mind is the segments from Gears of War when you're literally on rails, commandeering a turret. I know Gears is third-person, but you get the idea. I hope it isn't like this (I hate on-rails sections because they're usually so contrived and gimmicky), and I'm reserving final judgment until I see the Skyline in action, but I have to admit to being worried by this revealing description of what is likely to be one of the primary features of Infinite.

[undeniably]

Yes, I certainly agree on the all nations being mythologies bit. The concept of a 'nation' and even 'citizenship' is at its core defined by who is excluded and who is included. There is a reason why the terms 'negro' and 'black' became 'African-American' only after the Civil Rights Movement - because people of color, particularly those of African descent, were not considered 'American' and they did not enjoy the privileges of citizenship. Now, of course, we have "illegals" (along with the very poor, Muslims, and prisoners) as those who are excluded from the social contract.

[heavengoneaway]

undeniably said:...because people of color, particularly those of African descent, were not considered 'American' and they did not enjoy the privileges of citizenship.



A very curious aspect of American race-relations that I'm absolutely fascinated by is that the people whom are designated Native-Americans are perpetually considered foreign outsiders whenever they are codified in American social exposition and debate.


This exclusionary designation is incredibly unjust and shameful, and yet it is one of the most persistent in all of American society. I'd be willing to discuss whether you agree, and the legacy of the treatment of this specific social sect on American society. But I think we should also carry this over to your thread, as I'm having great difficulty in tying our discussions into speculation about Bioshock Infinite.


On the other hand, if you have any thoughts or points about the game specifically (game play systems, whether or not Infinite will be explicitly or obliquely linked with the original Bioshock, and so on), feel free to jettison those here.


References on the Native American: We Shall Remain ('http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/weshallremain/'), The Native American Experience ('http://www.amazon.com/Native-American-Experience-Jay-Wertz/dp/159921475X'), Data and links ('http://factfinder.census.gov/home/aian/index.html') (population figures, social/cultural integration and impact, etc.)

[undeniably]

heavengoneaway -


I responded to your post on the American Exceptionalism thread, just so you know. A question we might ask in regards to the Native American experience around this time period is whether or not it might be included in Bioshock Infinite. The Indian Citizenship Act wasn't until 1924, but the last major military challenges on the 'frontier' were over and there were large shifts in the treatment of native peoples (forced assimilation instead of forced removal or slaughter).

[heavengoneaway]

undeniably said:A question we might ask in regards to the Native American experience around this time period is whether or not it might be included in Bioshock Infinite.


I'd guess this depends on how intricate an inclusion you'd expect. Relating the Native American social legacy to Infinite's themes of exclusion, oppression, discrimination, and genocide isn't hard. The first three of these aspects are already prominently featured in the trailer, and I'd argue that genocide is inferred in the poster of Miss Columbia rejecting a baby who seems weak, sick, or deformed. While rejecting the infirm and undesired, she vouchsafes a baby who appears healthy, robust, and obviously white. I honestly can't tell if the rejected baby is white or not; if it isn't, then the racial component is even more intense. However, if the rejected baby is white, then the conflict becomes more ethnic than racial, and yet still more heavily linked with Great Wave immigrant themes


Speculating on the inclusion of Native characters in Infinite--instead of simple symbolic ties to the essential themes of the game--given how segregated Columbian society has been revealed to be, as well as its highly exclusive and secretive nature, I don't see a Native intermixing with a white supremacist society in such a place or time as Columbia, the representative icon of American elitism and empowerment, ushering in the American Century. Natives could appear in a demeaning capacity (prisoners, servants or slaves), but I don't know if such a thing would (or could) be mentioned; 2K may intervene and prevent something so incendiary from inclusion into the game, since, as a publisher, their goal is to make money.


On the other hand, Red Dead Redemption dealt with Native American subjugation and genocide directly and eloquently with the characterization of Nastas ('http://reddead.wikia.com/wiki/Nastas'), so there is a precedent in this generation of gaming for representing Native Americans in an honest, politically-charged, potentially controversial way, and all within the context of a AAA release, as well.


I don't think anyone can argue that the themes of Bioshock Infinite interlock seamlessly with how Native Americans have been--in some cases, continue to be--treated socially, politically, and morally in America. Even so, I don't think we'll see a Native American character either walking the streets of Columbia, or chained in its dungeons, because they wouldn't fit in Columbia's world. Given how intensely hawkish and ethnocentric the denizens there have been revealed to be (possibly because they're under attack, attacking someone, or both), any discovered Native American would probably be lynched and/or shot before they could be imprisoned or enslaved. Breaking news: Bioshock Infinite has been rated EC (Early Childhood, ages 3 and up)!

[undeniably]

I haven't actually played Red Dead Redemption, though my brother got an XBox 360 just to play it a few months ago and there'll be a period of a few weeks before I have to go back to school while he's at home so maybe I'll give it a try. You would recommend it, no doubt?

[sac_boi]

undeniably said:

I haven't actually played Red Dead Redemption, though my brother got an XBox 360 just to play it a few months ago and there'll be a period of a few weeks before I have to go back to school while he's at home so maybe I'll give it a try. You would recommend it, no doubt?



I wouldn't, but that's only because I hate sandbox games.

[iglegacy_buddygz]

undeniably said:

I haven't actually played Red Dead Redemption, though my brother got an XBox 360 just to play it a few months ago and there'll be a period of a few weeks before I have to go back to school while he's at home so maybe I'll give it a try. You would recommend it, no doubt?



I would recommend it. And I am EXTREMELY picky with my video games. A video game must have a backbone of thought combined with cinematic quality for me to even think about picking it up. Red Dead is definitely a pick up if you enjoyed The Searchers, Dancing with Wolves, or any Sergio Leone flick.

[undeniably]

All right, sounds good, thanks for the recommendation. My brother comes back in a few days so I'll give it a whirl then.

[heavengoneaway]

undeniably said:You would recommend it, no doubt?


My recommendation is doubtless. RDR is an exceptional game, viewed through any of the prisms which define video games (technology, intent, design, and execution).


The reason why I love it is because for the first time I can recall as a player, I spent a meaningful amount of time in the game as a guy named John Marston. I don't want to spoil the game (I'd need another thread and forum to do so appropriately), but I was astonished when a video game asked me to be, simply and profoundly, a human being. There are other points when the game asks me to be a cowboy, a criminal, and a hunter. But to have all of these preconceived expectations suddenly fade until Marston, not Marston-as______ comes to the forefront of the experience, I admit to being plainly shocked at what I was witnessing and participating in.


Bioshock had moments of escape from the stencil and shroud of its nature as a piece of amusement. Something as simple as having Jack scream when he gets injured or shot has an explosive impact on the humanity of the game. The Doomguy grunted when he got hurt, and Gordon Freeman says nothing (except, curiously, when burned by fire, which is when he sounds like he's being given a paper cut), but to hear the man who is supposed to represent me in the world of the game blatantly shriek and bellow due to his peril, that turned a key somewhere. The very genuine response of screaming after you get shot or drilled made me give much more of a ☺☺☺☺ about trying to survive what was happening to my avatar in Bioshock. I hope Infinite carries this essentially human response over to Booker Dewitt.

[heavengoneaway]

My previous post focused on characterization, specifically, what made good video game characters over bad ones. And by good and bad, I don't mean halos or devil horns, I mean a good character is someone whose actions and personality are enjoyable to engage in, influence, and in some cases, dictate. Booker Dewitt, the man whose shoes we'll be walking in, is defined ('http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/08/bioshock-infinite/') as "a disgraced former Pinkerton agent 'who gets things done'.” Does this sound like a fun, interesting character to play as, or not?


Remember, the first Bioshock introduced Jack as an innocent bystander thrown into an impossible situation. This was a fabricated thread woven into a complex web of manipulation, but as players, we were initially led to believe that Jack was totally overwhelmed and entirely unsuited for being trapped in Rapture, facing the prospect of having to kill his way out. Booker, by contrast, knows what he's doing, and has a choice as to whether to be in Columbia or not.


To me, Booker sounds like one of those one-last-job characters; someone who has seen and done too many things he's ashamed of, but since he has no money, no home, and no prospects, he takes on the Columbia job because he either has nothing better to do, or he's pissed off the wrong people and faces the Hobson's choice ('http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hobsons-choice.html') of either going on a suicide mission, or going on the run until he gets hunted down like a lame dog.


Honestly, I thought the illusion of Jack we were initially led to believe was more interesting and engaging than some hard-boiled, seen-it-all-done-it-all, world-weary, down-and-out thuggish type. Plus, I'm more sympathetic to a freeing a slave who didn't even realize he was in bondage over the tired, over-used, "If I do this one last thing which involves deceiving and killing a bunch people, my conscience will be clear, and I'll be able to make a new life for myself in Tahiti." type of guy.


Elizabeth will probably be used to humanize Booker, smoothing out his rough edges, and generally making him seem less like the tough guy ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ (see Uncharted ('http://uncharted.wikia.com/wiki/Uncharted_Wiki') and The Sands of Time ('http://princeofpersia.wikia.com/wiki/Prince_of_Persia:_The_Sands_of_Time') for precedents of this kind of relationship in gaming).


If they make him talk too much, or give him a Batman voice to talk with, it'll be a deal breaker for me.


So, who do you think, want, or expect Booker to be, as a playable protagonist?

[undeniably]

I think my best answer to your questions and thoughts about Booker is that Dennis Lehane is a famous writer from the Boston area and Booker sounds like a character in his vein of writing, a more updated hardboiled (literary) detective protagonist - a Raymond Chandler from a northeast Irish ghetto. The stereotypes and cliches you are pointing to definitely have the possibility to ring true for this sort of character, but I also like to think that Irrational has proven itself more than worthy of an acknowledged sense of irony and play.

[heavengoneaway]

undeniably said:Irrational has proven itself more than worthy of an acknowledged sense of irony and play



I suppose if they make Booker terrible at his job (although connected to a shadowy detective agency, he has no idea how to respond to the situation when the ☺☺☺☺ hits the fan in Columbia) he has a chance of separating himself from his cliches. He is described as a fixer, though, which is why his being a stereotyped tough guy seems more likely to me.


The point I was making in contrasting Booker with Jack is that Jack is deceptively unusual as a protagonist in a video game, even to the point of being a metaphor for the game play experience. Booker seems like 90% of the protagonists this generation: lives by the gun, checkered past, chance at redemption, thanks for playing, and remember, winners don't use drugs.


Dennis Lehane is the writer of Infinite? What's he written? I can get a feel for his characterization and themes.

[undeniably]

To clarify - I don't think that someone like Lehane has necessarily had a huge influence on Irrational (in this case for Bioshock Infinite) but I do think that this sort of character is one fairly popular/common in his sort of writing and I wouldn't doubt that a lot of Irrational employees have read his novels. I am not a particularly big fan of his (I think he has too much respect for police) but he is a decent writer and no fool (aside from the trusting police bit, hah).


He wrote the novels on which Shutter Island and Mystic River were based (of the same name). A more interesting book in this case would be his The Given Day, which is an historical novel set in 1918 during the Boston policeman's strike.

[heavengoneaway]

undeniably said:He wrote the novels on which Shutter Island and Mystic River were based



Shutter Island: "We ah DOOLY APPAHNTED FEDUHRAHL MAHSHULLS! Translation: "We are duly appointed Federal Marshals." Ah, Leo Dicaprio, it's a wonder you haven't found a glittering second career as a dialect coach.


I've recognized recently how much I've been bagging on this game. I admit to being very concerned about what's been revealed pertaining to the Skyline (possibly turning Bioshock into Virtua Cop), and the potentially high probability of the main character being a walking cliche. I'm very intrigued by Columbia, and probably having to choose whether Elizabeth is killed so that Booker can survive. Every time she uses her powers to amplify what Booker is capable of--or outright save him from death--she injures/weakens/dooms herself. See almost every preview of the game released thus far for corroboration. This localizes, intensifies, and personalizes the moral conflict the Little Sisters represented in the first Bioshock.


I'll tell you something: If Booker is even half the "tough guy" ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ I've speculated him to be, he's going down. I wouldn't even need the consequential connection created by the sympathetic or utilitarian dichotomous relationship (probably) represented by Booker's interactions with Elizabeth. I'm tired of playing gravelly-voiced, monosyllabic chest-beaters. If Booker falls into this camp, I'm finding the slowest, most brutal way to engineer his demise while still progressing Infinite's narrative to its conclusion. I'll laugh every inch of the way he's lowered, feet first, into a human blender. Note: Human blenders are not confirmed, but shouldn't they be? I smell the newest Plasmid to be revealed!

[iglegacy_buddygz]

heavengoneaway said:



undeniably said:He wrote the novels on which Shutter Island and Mystic River were based



Shutter Island: "We ah DOOLY APPAHNTED FEDUHRAHL MAHSHULLS! Translation: "We are duly appointed Federal Marshals."



Hahahaha.

that's actually the only quote I seem to remember from that flick. I'm actually a huge Martin Scorsese fan, and although I enjoyed the movie, I would recommend the book over it any day.

Also I respect DiCaprio for his filmography, but damn, is he bad at accents.

[undeniably]

heavengoneaway said:


I'll tell you something: If Booker is even half the "tough guy" ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ I've speculated him to be, he's going down. I wouldn't even need the consequential connection created by the sympathetic or utilitarian dichotomous relationship (probably) represented by Booker's interactions with Elizabeth. I'm tired of playing gravelly-voiced, monosyllabic chest-beaters. If Booker falls into this camp, I'm finding the slowest, most brutal way to engineer his demise while still progressing Infinite's narrative to its conclusion. I'll laugh every inch of the way he's lowered, feet first, into a human blender. Note: Human blenders are not confirmed, but shouldn't they be? I smell the newest Plasmid to be revealed!



Yeah, this is why the Fallout games have always been my favorite. There definitely is the chest-beater route, but plenty of other chances to play something resembling a human being.

[iglegacy_buddygz]

undeniably said:



heavengoneaway said:

I'll tell you something: If Booker is even half the "tough guy" ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ I've speculated him to be, he's going down. I wouldn't even need the consequential connection created by the sympathetic or utilitarian dichotomous relationship (probably) represented by Booker's interactions with Elizabeth. I'm tired of playing gravelly-voiced, monosyllabic chest-beaters. If Booker falls into this camp, I'm finding the slowest, most brutal way to engineer his demise while still progressing Infinite's narrative to its conclusion. I'll laugh every inch of the way he's lowered, feet first, into a human blender. Note: Human blenders are not confirmed, but shouldn't they be? I smell the newest Plasmid to be revealed!



Yeah, this is why the Fallout games have always been my favorite. There definitely is the chest-beater route, but plenty of other chances to play something resembling a human being.



If you remember, Bioshock one seemed to have a very human vibe to him. No Vin Diesel here.

[heavengoneaway]

buddygz said:I'm actually a huge Martin Scorsese fan


*****

If you remember, Bioshock one seemed to have a very human vibe to him. No Vin Diesel here.


Are you anticipating Boardwalk Empire ('http://www.hbo.com/boardwalk-empire?cmpid=ABC458') as much as I am? Scorsese directs, and Terence Winter, Sopranos writer, created/wrote/produced.


*****


I've posted about Jack from the original Bioshock, "Something as simple as having Jack scream when he gets injured or shot has an explosive impact on the humanity of the game." His vulnerable humanity is one of the main reasons I enjoyed the game as much as I did



undeniably said:There definitely is the chest-beater route, but plenty of other chances to play something resembling a human being.


I doubt you'll be able to directly define Booker's personality traits as you do with Fallout's Vault Dwellers, but I have a sneaking suspicion you'll be able to influence his level of assholishness through the relationship with Elizabeth. As I've said before, I think she is the analogue for the Little Sisters in Infinite's narrative, and it's highly likely the choice to either save her or kill her will be one of the defining characteristics of the experience.


In game information news, the inclusion ('http://kotaku.com/5617852/multiplayer-not-guaranteed-for-bioshock-infinite') of multiplayer in Infinite is currently being qualified and debated. Given how repeatedly the Booker/Elizabeth relationship is connected to Left 4 Dead by Levine himself (though I think it's closer to Gordon and Alyx in Half-Life 2), I wouldn't be shocked if some form of co-op game play was revealed at some point. Thoughts?

[iglegacy_newton]

Just a tidbit from Köln: Irrational were handing out really ominous-looking statues of crows, filled with some inaccessible liquid (water, I presume, but it still makes the return flight a little complicated for a backpacker, I must say). Each statue wears the 'Murder of Crows' medallion. Check it out ('http://reviews.cnet.com/2300-9020_7-10004485.html?s=0&o=10004485&tag=mncol;page').

[heavengoneaway]

newton said:Irrational were handing out really ominous-looking statues of crows, filled with some inaccessible liquid



I wonder if Plasmids/power-ups will be injected or ingested in Infinite. Maybe it depends on the type. In Bioshock, for example, Elec is injected, but I believe Incinerate was acquired from a bottle, not a syringe.


Since Infinite takes place around 50 years earlier, I wonder if Adam and Eve are even discovered or widely available, although it'd be a little unbelievable to have the exact same super-powers (Telekinesis), and other weird, crazy ☺☺☺☺ (like Murder of Crows) available from some sort of other magic potion, which also makes a pointed comment about man's reach exceeding his grasp. Could the new power-ups be Kane and Abel? :rolleyes:

[heavengoneaway]

What does everyone think the primary function of Infinite's version of the Big Daddy will be? I have my suspicions about these characters being cyborgs (human organisms/body parts integrated into a primarily mechanical infrastructure). Columbia's being under attack or infiltrated makes them likely security forces. Perhaps a last line of defense? I don't see them being a standard baddie, because the more you fight a particular enemy type, the less remarkable the battles become, simply by nature of repetition.


There have been several symbolic parallels between what's been revealed about Columbian society and Nazism. Infinite's version of the Big Daddy could be the secret police, protecting and defending classified, vitally functional areas of Columbia, such as the office Booker gets tossed out of in the trailer. Stationing them at the most critical areas in the game fits the profile of standard video game bosses.


I doubt we'll see Little Sisters, as the public message about Infinite so far has been about separating it from what's come before, which likely leaves out the familiar escort function. Something to consider is that they may not be the bad guys; Big Daddies in the original Bioshock were genetically engineered, socially conditioned slaves to a set of implanted values and actions. Yes, they needed to be fought and killed so the player could survive, as they probably will be in Infinite, but this consequence alone didn't make them the villains in Bioshock, and doesn't make them Infinite's bad guys either.


Maybe Booker is the bad guy. What's been revealed about his character so far doesn't make him seem so trustworthy or admirable. He could be tricking his employers/Elizabeth into thinking he's there to rescue her when really, he's there to kidnap, kill, or incapacitate her so she can be experimented on and have her powers extracted and replicated. Infinite's Big Daddies could be there in order to protect Elizabeth from Booker.


What are some of the other theories out there?

[heavengoneaway]

The new podcast ('http://irrationalgames.com/insider/irrational-behavior/') is up. It goes over the trailer with a fine-toothed comb. The new character I was speculating about in the above post is called the Alpha, and this name could be a reference to it being a prototype to the Big Daddy of the original Bioshock. Lots of great stuff in the new episode (and not so great: an early version of Elizabeth had her looking mannish, but also flashing her tits. Thank heaven for the drawing board). How's 'bout checking it out? And, if you feel like it, point out whatever you find interesting.

[iglegacy_buddygz]

heavengoneaway said:



buddygz said:I'm actually a huge Martin Scorsese fan

*****

If you remember, Bioshock one seemed to have a very human vibe to him. No Vin Diesel here.


Are you anticipating Boardwalk Empire ('http://www.hbo.com/boardwalk-empire?cmpid=ABC458') as much as I am? S



Yes I am, much more than that Spielberg Hanks teamup for The Pacific!

Not only that, but I haven't seen Steve Buscemi in anything relevant in a very long time!

***

On a related note, that's what put Jack on the top of my list for best lead in a Video Game.

Just the fact that he was so vulnerable made him so relatable. I pray to god they go this route with Booker.

[heavengoneaway]

buddygz said:Yes I am, much more than that Spielberg Hanks teamup for The Pacific! Not only that, but I haven't seen Steve Buscemi in anything relevant in a very long time!


Hey, I liked The Pacific! :p


I'm with you on Buscemi, though. You'd think he'd make a terrible tough guy since he's so unimposing, but just look at what he did as Mr. Pink in Reservoir Dogs. I honestly can't wait for this new show, although they sure are pimping it for all they're worth; if HBO tries any harder, they might risk turning people off.



buddygz said:On a related note, that's what put Jack on the top of my list for best lead in a Video Game. Just the fact that he was so vulnerable made him so relatable. I pray to god they go this route with Booker.


Jack really wasn't vulnerable, though, we as players were just manipulated into thinking he was based on how we were introduced to the character and his conflict. In actuality, he represented the evolutionary progress in Rapture's genetic engineering: first there were the Little Sisters, then the Big Daddies, and finally, Jack. He was kind of a super-powered Manchurian Candidate ('http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/').


I totally agree with you on the appeal of human characters who are weaker, not stronger. It makes their feelings easier to relate to and the desire for them to succeed more sympathetic. I'm completely over steering a cookie-cutter super soldier around, blowing random ☺☺☺☺ up just to blow it up.


Did you get a chance to listen to the podcast? What'd you think of it?

[iglegacy_buddygz]

heavengoneaway said:



buddygz said:Yes I am, much more than that Spielberg Hanks teamup for The Pacific! Not only that, but I haven't seen Steve Buscemi in anything relevant in a very long time!



Hey, I liked The Pacific! :p

I'm with you on Buscemi, though. You'd think he'd make a terrible tough guy since he's so unimposing, but just look at what he did as Mr. Pink in Reservoir Dogs. I honestly can't wait for this new show, although they sure are pimping it for all they're worth; if HBO tries any harder, they might risk turning people off.



buddygz said:On a related note, that's what put Jack on the top of my list for best lead in a Video Game. Just the fact that he was so vulnerable made him so relatable. I pray to god they go this route with Booker.



Jack really wasn't vulnerable, though, we as players were just manipulated into thinking he was based on how we were introduced to the character and his conflict. In actuality, he represented the evolutionary progress in Rapture's genetic engineering: first there were the Little Sisters, then the Big Daddies, and finally, Jack. He was kind of a super-powered <a>Manchurian Candidate.

I totally agree with you on the appeal of human characters who are weaker, not stronger. It makes their feelings easier to relate to and the desire for them to succeed more sympathetic. I'm completely over steering a cookie-cutter super soldier around, blowing random ☺☺☺☺ up just to blow it up.

Did you get a chance to listen to the podcast? What'd you think of it?


</a>


I liked the Pacific too, but this HBO special seems like it will have more depth.

Haha, exactly! surely you've seen the movie Fargo.

***

I can't stand the cookie cutter hero stereotype. It's the only reason I can't get into the Halo series, or Gears series.

Although Jack's genetic indifference made him an advantage over normal humans, he still seemed like a very vulnerable character, as he was programmed to preform on command. He also was a silent character, contributing to his vulnerability. His lack of communication displayed a lack of confidence, relating him to a normal situation.

The podcast was pretty informative. I kinda like hearing how many obstacles they have overcome just to release a trailer... it shows effort.

I wonder what those hints are...

[heavengoneaway]

buddygz said:Haha, exactly! surely you've seen the movie Fargo.



Oh yah, I've seen Fargo, sure, yah. :D



buddygz said:The podcast was pretty informative. I kinda like hearing how many obstacles they have overcome just to release a trailer... it shows effort.



Hell yeah it was informative: It's a big-budget game when the design department is allowed 2+ months to iterate the hairstyle of the female lead! :p


The section I found most impressive was Listen Up!, the chapter focusing on sound design. I think they said they used 162 separate tracks, and each track can contain multiple audio elements. The density of the soundscape, squashed into ~2 minutes, absolutely blew me away. I went back and watched the trailer after muting it, and the thing was like looking at a current picture of Schwarzenegger versus when he was headlining Predator or Terminator movies. The power, impact, and intensity of the experience was completely gone and totally lifeless without either sound effects or music. It was also awesome to find out they had a broken TV stand starring as the Alpha. The inauspicious, found-object nature of something so powerful and dangerous reminded me of Ben Burtt, the Star Wars sound designer, saying he used the pinging of guy wires as the foundation for the iconic audio of lightsabers. I love those cool never-would-have-imagined-what-this-could-turn-into type moments.



buddygz said:I wonder what those hints are...



The more I think about the trailer, the stronger my conviction is that it's an encapsulated version of what Infinite is, while at the same time, leaving enough room for surprises. This is what a good trailer does: It opens the door to the experience, but doesn't show off every room in the house. Too many (bad) trailers either totally give everything away, or are so fragmented and over-stylized that they give no indication as to what the hell is going on, much less why anyone should care enough to become a fan or a likely consumer. Infinite's trailer gives a definite snapshot of the world, the people, and the conflict. In the defined details, they leave room for shades of suggested culture, politics, and emotion. In other words, there's things we know for sure about the game we'll be playing, bunched together with stuff to keep us guessing (hence this thread). I'm reasonably sure about what's lurking in the shadowy corners of Infinite (see other posts about politics, symbolism, who's good, who's bad, why all of it matters, why it could be a lot of fun, and why it might be a huge disappointment). If I'm wrong about what I think about Infinite, I won't be mad, I'll be curious. Curiosity is the hallmark of a good trailer. Seeing how much time, work, and money went into these two minutes, I'd say it's a job well done.

[heavengoneaway]

Plasmid Update!


I decided to do some digging in Infinite's coverage, and picked up on some interesting details I hadn't noticed or been referred to yet. All info from this article ('http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/2943412')


The function and usage of Murder of Crows is described:


"Our player is suddenly being attacked by more opponents than were likely ever on screen at once in the previous games, but never fear, crows are here. As the crows swarm in, the mob is disabled and easy pickings for another weapon reveal - the trusty old shotgun."


This strongly reminds me of the Insect Swarm plasmid, which was similarly used as a crowd control/buy-some-time tactic. From the wiki ('http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Insect_Swarm'): "Two things make [Insect Swarm] unique: First, it homes in on enemies. Second, it distracts enemies even in the middle of combat. This makes it particularly useful if the player is not very accurate, but also if they wish to use it for stealth and escape tactics. It is also a good choice when sniping faraway enemies, as they do not attack the player upon being swarmed."


Updates, Improvements, and Refinements to Telekinesis:


"Elizabeth uses a magnetic power to gather scattered scrap metal objects from the environment into a giant, hovering molten ball, then instructs the player to use their own psychokinetic ability to launch it at the foes. Wherein the previous games the variety of weapons and plasmids often degenerated into just using your favourites until you ran out of ammo, the increased number of opponents and environmental scale in Infinite aim to make the player act more strategically with their combos and use 'the right tool for the job'."


If Elizabeth can powerfully gather so much potential ammunition, why can't she fire it? The obvious answer addresses her capacity as a supporting character; back-up puts the ball on the tee so the star can smash it off. Leaving aside the mundane reality of making sure the player is in charge of all the really cool stuff, story-wise, why the hell does Elizabeth need Booker? She seems more powerful than any Plasmid-wielding Bioshock character I know of (caveat: I haven't played B2). Yes, she injures herself when she uses her powers, providing a reason to limit their employment, but who's to say Booker won't fall victim to the same vulnerability?


This isn't Plasmid-related, but is nonetheless a cool description of an enemy: "[A] flying dragon big daddy - a metallic, hulking winged beast with the characteristic diver's helmet hemispheres as it's two bugging eyes." Flying enemies are a very good reason to have flying heroes, which astute readers will recognize as my most anticipated (possible) game play feature in Infinite.

[assassin_snyper]

Think it will be in 3d?

[heavengoneaway]

assassinsnyper said:Think it will be in 3d?



I doubt it. In reading interviews with IG personnel, the developmental focus ain't capitalizing on whatever techy fad is rising to the top of the hipster cesspool at this very moment.


Infinite is a FPS, but multiplayer, 60 fps, and compatibility with Kinect or Move are not main concerns for the game. The team is concerning themselves with standing out on the basis of the world, the characters, and the game play abilities (Plasmid combos, choice of tactics, tangible moral consequences).


If it's gonna be in 3D, I'm not gonna have presentational support for it, anyway. Because I'm not about to fork over multi-thousands for ridiculously priced, first-gen, in-home 3D tech, complete with too-few pairs of dorky-ass, uncomfortable glasses. By the way, I'm a main PR affiliate for the new Panasonic ☺☺☺☺box. Our motto is: Don't Waste Your Money on Our New ☺☺☺☺box, Unless You Want to See Avatar Like You Did at the Movies, Only in a Not-as-Cool Kind of Way. It tested through the roof with desperate housewives and guys in their mid-fifties who were early adopters of Betamax.

[heavengoneaway]

So, I guess this discussion will go dark until we get some more game info, courtesy of a convention or media preview. Maybe Infinite shows up at PAX and/or TGS, maybe not; we'll see. Either way, thanks for all the great topics and theories so far, guys and gals. I'll be back once Infinite surfaces for air.

[undeniably]

heavengoneaway said:

So, I guess this discussion will go dark until we get some more game info, courtesy of a convention or media preview. Maybe Infinite shows up at PAX and/or TGS, maybe not; we'll see. Either way, thanks for all the great topics and theories so far, guys and gals. I'll be back once Infinite surfaces for air.



Thanks for all your thoughtful posts as well. I'm pretty sure some Infinite-related stuff will be happening at PAX - they already announced some sort of workshop on it, I believe.

[heavengoneaway]

The kudos are much appreciated, undeniably! Thanks, also, for your many insights.


Lo and behold, Infinite made some headlines, thanks largely to PAX. Did anyone attend? There was a public exhibition of the game demo, which premiered hand-in-hand with the trailer at the press event. Feel free to contribute any opinions and conjecture if you saw a bite-sized bit of the game up and running.


The info I found most intriguing came from Game Informer. They're hosting ('http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2010/09/04/October9981-Cover9981-Revealed9918.aspx') a collage of images based on/in Infinite lore. Of particular interest to me are two images: One is of Elizabeth, laying a hand on what is being referred to as the Titan, a creature/character/enemy appearing to be reminiscent of a colossal Big Daddy, but with warped, animal-like features. It almost looks like a bird and reptile hybrid. A man's strained face can be seen through the eye/viewport of the creature, suggesting genetic tomfoolery (recombination. a la Moreau ('http://www.online-literature.com/wellshg/doctormoreau/')), or the integration of humans into mechanical constructs). Speaking of which, the Alpha is also prominently featured, and in a decidedly non-threatening context.


Given Elizabeth's gentle, personal interaction with the Titan, as well as showcasing an Alpha acting friendly with a small boy, my suspicions about their role, Booker's role, and how all are connected to Elizabeth have deepened: Booker may be the bad guy, but is hiding it, and his foes may chiefly obstruct him out of concern for Elizabeth, not because they want to profit from or experiment on her. Then again, this could be yet more examples of Columbia's social propaganda, and numerous previous examples demonstrate how skewed and sneakily evil it can be.


The second image of note is an advertisement for a particular brand of Skyhook, which is how the Skyline will be utilized and traversed by the player. I'm curious whether there'll be different brands or types in-game, with associated statistics (Speed, grip duration, durability, etc.) I'd also like to know whether you can shoot/damage the skyhook while it's in use (hence the possible durability category), causing it to fail and the user to plummet to their deaths.


There's more tantalizing pictures at the article I linked to, but those described above are the only ones I feel like pointing out. If you see something else you want to discuss, fire away. GI is also doing a feature on Infinite, which will presumably be very detailed. If anyone's a subscriber and would like to enlighten the rest of us lowly denizens of the internet, feel free.


IGN has a new interview with Levine ('http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/111/1118673p1.html'). It deals with the familiar (American exceptionalism, the design-sense of Columbia's world from philosophical, thematic and gameplay perspectives, and how the areas interlock and distinguish themselves outright). The most exciting revelation (to me) is the demo being made publicly available. There's no firm date on this, but it sounds soonish. Awesome!


Some new stuff, a lot of re-iterated touchstones, and most importantly, escalating curiosity. Urge to play...rising.

[heavengoneaway]

Courtesy of Irrational's Chris Remo ('http://irrationalgames.com/insider/ten-things-you-should-know-about-bioshock-infinite-day-1/'): "the online unveiling of BioShock Infinite’s first gameplay demonstration video...will go live September 21 on Xbox LIVE and Xbox.com."


I'm excited, curious, and very slightly eager to show off my Nelson Muntz ('http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClynhFKMs3c') impression, which is another way of saying I'm not totally sold on Infinite yet. T-minus 7ish days until I know more definitively what I'll be doing with three green pictures of Andrew Jackson (plus a couple Washingtons) in 2012.

[iglegacy_bigboss]

You all guys have a great imagination...

[heavengoneaway]

bigboss said:You all guys have a great imagination...


Thanks for the compliment!


The game play demo has premiered, and I have to say I'm impressed. I ain't exactly throw-my-wallet-at-the-cashier-as-I-sprint-for-the-parking-lot-with-game-in-hand impressed, but only a liar or a non-gamer wouldn't find something cool in the latest Infinite video.


the play-by-play of the demo has been trod into the ground by the gaming press (here ('http://kotaku.com/5607451/bioshock-infinite-goes-beyond-the-sea--into-the-skies'), for example), so I'm only pointing out what hasn't--to my knowledge--been pointed out before, or was plain 'ol extra awesome.


Keeping in mind that this was a specifically designed demo, and therefore unlikely to fully represent the complete game when it's lodged in living rooms, it's worth noting that the health system could be regenerative. As Booker gets wounded, the screen becomes redder and redder, until he kills his enemies or retreats, at which point it clears up again. In all likelihood, God mode was on for this session so the player couldn't wreck the intro to Infinite game play by ☺☺☺☺ing up and dying, but what I've described seems en vogue when you look at Halo, Call of Duty, Gears, etc. Of course, Bioshock has health packs. Doesn't mean Infinite will or won't, but if IG and 2K are looking to widen the Bioshock franchise's appeal (Bioshock: ~4 mil sold ('http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27506/TakeTwo_BioShock_Hit_4M_Units_BioShock_2_Drove_Sal es.php') in total, Halo Reach: ~3.5 mil sold ('http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/09/halo_reach_200m_in_24_hours.html') in the first 24 hours of its release), they may start following the pack.


I don't know why I didn't notice or think of this before, but when the Skyline is being used, one of Booker's hands will be cuffed to the rail. This means no two-handed weapons when riding 1912's hot new roller coaster. In the demo, he wrench-bashes some guy trying to cut him off, who was also about to swing a melee weapon. The guy consequently detaches from the line, pancakes on the side of a building, and then falls forever and ever. This is cool. But it would also be cool if he just dangled there like a pinata soaking up unnecessary blunt force trauma, until you hit/shot the arm that was anchoring him to the skyline. Since it wasn't explicitly shown, there's no way of knowing for sure, but as long as he has one hand free, I can't see why Booker wouldn't be able to use pistols/plasmids while riding the skyline.


The buildings are actually demonstrated to be physical objects in-engine, not just a matte painting or as a way to define the boundaries of the play-space. The destruction sequence shown is clearly a scripted event, but it would still be awesome if you could bury a rocket in the side of one, altering it's trajectory enough to force it to collide with another building nearby, or pour 100 bullets into a support balloon keeping the structure hovering, causing it to tilt or--best case scenario--plummet to earth altogether. I'm not holding my breath for this level of dynamic interaction, but if the essence of Bioshock is choosing how to play the game, then my Bioshock is a war of attrition against all gravity-defying buildings.


The much-touted moment of intruding upon a crowd of characters and having them not immediately fire on Booker played out much differently than I thought it would. Mainly because one of these regular Joe's eventually opened up on Booker. This seems counter-intuitive to arguing your game is not filled with one-track-mind kill-bots. Why were these guys even so supposedly chill to begin with? Not 5 seconds from their front door, explosions were booming, bullets were flying, and a mechanical monster was hot on Booker's heels. If their A.I. is supposed to react according to player behavior, then every person in the room should have immediately opened fire, because it was obvious Booker was causing and fleeing from plenty of verboten chaos and mayhem. Yes, it's a finite demo, and they wanted to emphasize as much about the game within the limitations provided. Even so, this scene and these behaviors just didn't feel right to me.


Gun play looked fun and interesting, with each weapon nicely distinct in shape, animation (particularly the reloads on the shotgun), sound, and damaging capability. I like the update to Telekinesis (stealing and firing guns without touching them), and Electrobolt seemed more rapid-fire than I remember, which is a good thing. There was no injecting eve, but just as I believe God mode was activated for the demo, so to was infinite ammo, which means this action could be in the final game. I always loved the hypo-stab in Bioshock, it was so gross and unusual.


Neither Booker nor Elizabeth sound like total douche bags, which is a major plus. I'm pretty good with voices, and I'm 90% sure whoever voiced Jack voices Booker. He screams when shot, which up-to-date readers know I think improves game immersion and naturally makes the character more sympathetic. I don't know who voices Elizabeth, but she seems believable and not annoying. Granted, all I've heard her say is variations of "Look out!" (Radioactive Man...not really), and "ARGH!" so the jury's still out on her. I'll just go ahead and get my bias out of the way: She's no Alyx.


Good stuff, so far. Not MUST HAVE good, at least not yet. How's 'bout letting me play the demo, though? That might help.

[heavengoneaway]

For convenience's sake, here is a definitive list ('http://irrationalgames.com/insider/ten-things-you-should-know-about-bioshock-infinite-the-recap/') of the core features and themes of Bioshock Infinite, straight from the horse's mouth. If I could, I'd add this to the first post in the thread (Key Concepts), but there are editing restrictions.


You'll notice multi-player isn't on there. We're at the "This is what the game actually is and why it's worth investing time, money, and attention in" stage. Previously revealed philosophy about the inclusion of multi-player hinged on developing something major, striking, and absolutely worth the devotion of significant effort and precious resources. If it didn't make it into this crucial identity formation round of promotion, I don't see it being a part of the game. There's a chance it could be revealed after the heat of the announcement and introduction dies down, simply to re-insert Bioshock Infinite into the popular gamer consciousness and churn up another hype wave, but I'd make it a slim one.


If I were to expect a subsequently revealed form of multi-player, it'd be co-op. Anything else, I don't care at all.

[Xybot]

I looked around but didn't see this theory anywhere. Forgive me if someone has already mentioned it:


I think that Elizabeth is somehow tied in to the "mysterious technology" that is helping to keep Columbia afloat. She is either using a strong form of telekinesis (which may explain why some of her other powers seem weak) or she can control / influence HIM ... who is using a strong form of telekinesis.


Thoughts?

[rolanthunder]

heavengoneaway said:

It's interesting to see what Ken Levine, the driving force behind the creative universe these games take place in, thinks are the fundamental elements defining the Bioshock experience: "First, it has to be set in a world that is both fantastical and yet also grounded in the human experience. Second, it has to provide gamers with a large set of tools, and then set them loose in an environment that empowers them to solve problems in their own way." Speaking as a gamer, and boiling the essence of the first Bioshock game down to a couple definitive elements, I'd say the game distinguished itself as unique and well-made on the basis of its enemies (mainly the Big Daddy) and the abilities given to the player in order to combat and defeat those enemies (Plasmids and Gene Tonics).

The setting is absolutely a huge contributing factor. Rapture was and is emotionally engaging, authentically realized, and just flat out a cool place to discover and experiment in, but the setting is only what made me want to start playing Bioshock, not reach its end. The psychological and moral investment I made in connection with the Little Sisters, and in opposition to the Big Daddies and the overriding philosophy of excess that Rapture was built on, made me want to prevail over Ryan, Suchong, and Atlas. In other words, the setting introduced me to the world, the enemies and the conflict made me want to finish what I started.



I like ur description of BioShock and Rapture because what u love about the games is what I love too however, when it comes to Infinite, yes, I agree with you about the feeling of apprehension after hearing about the game's breakaway from the alluring, emotional, inspiring world of Rapture that we know and love but, I must state that I am elated at what I've seen in the Infinite game play demo!! My question of whether Columbia will do what Rapture did for me has been answered by the video. It's also important to note that, from what we've heard from Ken in his interviews, his aim was to take us somewhere different from Rapture thereby taking the series into "more than just one place". I was concerned about that move like I said and like u and many other fans were but, since they've taken this bold stance - I think Ken realised that to keep BioShock unique, he would need to do something unique within BioShock itself hence, the departure to Columbia for Infinite and also, cleverly, not subtitling it "3". Setting the heart of the game, it's story further back than Rapture to 1912 seems like the developers are aiming to give the roots of Bio's game play - Plasmids, weapons, Gene Tonics, iconic Big Daddy's and Little Sisters (should we see them or a resemblance to them) a new derivation specifically for the radical change that Infinite will bring to the series (another universe where similar feats are possible but, not tying it to the original universe of Rapture). Therefore, we ask ourselves, "what are the new powers, how do Electro Bolt and Telekinesis come to be, how will we get them and how do they correlate with Elizabeth's powers and abilities"? Answers we can only find once we embark on an already long-awaited journey to explore Columbia.


Perhaps he will take us back to Rapture in an official "BioShock 3" in the future - only time will tell...I for one, will always love Rapture as it IS BioShock and the way it makes me feel - my journeys through it's halls have already become a part of me...I cannot wait for Infinite to arrive in all it's glory!!


I think that Ken sees each release as the "PAINT" and BioShock itself as the "CANVAS".

[rolanthunder]

Just watched the awesome Infinite video again... I noticed something concerning the art of Columbia that I'm not sure if any of you have...early on in the video, around 2:08 Booker approaches a big statue of a woman with the US flag resting on her arms...she really looks like Elizabeth. Agree? After seeing that, I had an epiphany - Elizabeth has been seemingly 'trapped' inside Columbia for 15 years yet, she has been unharmed, instead the "Big Crow Daddy" (as I like to call him) has been assumed as her protector...if they - I use the word 'they' loosely here because, 'they' could range from the government of Columbia to extremist groups, rebels and so on, may have been using her to protect them somehow from the 'foreign hordes' as Salton Stall puts it, with her powers which they may or may not have had a hand in developing for Elizabeth. If this is the case then, these people probably idolised her in the form of that statue because they believe that she is Columbia's only hope, saving grace or saviour, if you will...


Thoughts?

[Pinky_Powers]

rolanthunder said:

she really looks like Elizabeth. Agree?



Not really. I looked again, and I just don't see the resemblance.

[rolanthunder]

pinkypowers said:



rolanthunder said:

she really looks like Elizabeth. Agree?



Not really. I looked again, and I just don't see the resemblance.



Interesting...another reason why I thought she might be Elizabeth is because, the promotional pick for BioShock Infinite and the first trailer for the game is one with Elizabeth standing in a similar position to the statue - hand outstretched to Booker as she saved him from free-falling to earth with her 'Rose Telekinesis'...remember that part or the pic (which can be seen on the Cult of Rapture's website as well)?

[rolanthunder]

heavengoneaway said:

The kudos are much appreciated, undeniably! Thanks, also, for your many insights.

Lo and behold, Infinite made some headlines, thanks largely to PAX. Did anyone attend? There was a public exhibition of the game demo, which premiered hand-in-hand with the trailer at the press event. Feel free to contribute any opinions and conjecture if you saw a bite-sized bit of the game up and running.

The info I found most intriguing came from Game Informer. They're Moreau), or the integration of humans into mechanical constructs). Speaking of which, the Alpha is also prominently featured, and in a decidedly non-threatening context.

Given Elizabeth's gentle, personal interaction with the Titan, as well as showcasing an Alpha acting friendly with a small boy, my suspicions about their role, Booker's role, and how all are connected to Elizabeth have deepened: Booker may be the bad guy, but is hiding it, and his foes may chiefly obstruct him out of concern for Elizabeth, not because they want to profit from or experiment on her. Then again, this could be yet more examples of Columbia's social propaganda, and numerous previous examples demonstrate how skewed and sneakily evil it can be.

The second image of note is an advertisement for a particular brand of Skyhook, which is how the Skyline will be utilized and traversed by the player. I'm curious whether there'll be different brands or types in-game, with associated statistics (Speed, grip duration, durability, etc.) I'd also like to know whether you can shoot/damage the skyhook while it's in use (hence the possible durability category), causing it to fail and the user to plummet to their deaths.

There's more tantalizing pictures at the article I linked to, but those described above are the only ones I feel like pointing out. If you see something else you want to discuss, fire away. GI is also doing a feature on Infinite, which will presumably be very detailed. If anyone's a subscriber and would like to enlighten the rest of us lowly denizens of the internet, feel free.

[url='http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/111/1118673p1.html']IGN has a new interview with Levine (http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2010/09/04/October9981-Cover9981-Revealed9918.aspx">hosting a collage of images based on/in Infinite lore. Of particular interest to me are two images: One is of Elizabeth, laying a hand on what is being referred to as the Titan, a creature/character/enemy appearing to be reminiscent of a colossal Big Daddy, but with warped, animal-like features. It almost looks like a bird and reptile hybrid. A man's strained face can be seen through the eye/viewport of the creature, suggesting genetic tomfoolery (recombination. a la <a href="http://www.online-literature.com/wellshg/doctormoreau/). It deals with the familiar (American exceptionalism, the design-sense of Columbia's world from philosophical, thematic and gameplay perspectives, and how the areas interlock and distinguish themselves outright). The most exciting revelation (to me) is the demo being made publicly available. There's no firm date on this, but it sounds soonish. Awesome!

Some new stuff, a lot of re-iterated touchstones, and most importantly, escalating curiosity. Urge to play...rising.



Ooooh man!!! I'm jumping with joy at the sound of a playable demo :D The brilliance...sigh...can't wait anymore!

[ragingmudcrab]

Having the demo playable would really help with the theories. I hope it happens soon, but I'm not going to get my hopes up. I wouldn't be surprised if they never even released it at all.

[heavengoneaway]

xybot said:I think that Elizabeth is somehow tied in to the "mysterious technology" that is helping to keep Columbia afloat. She is either using a strong form of telekinesis (which may explain why some of her other powers seem weak) or she can control / influence HIM ... who is using a strong form of telekinesis.


Whatever development led to floating city tech could have given rise to vigors, (and thereby Elizabeth's powers), but I don't think she's keeping the whole place airborne. She gets a nosebleed and has to take a breather after dealing with a dozen-strong mob; logically, keeping all of Columbia hovering would make her head explode. Her powers besides TK don't seem very weak, either: the conjured storm cloud saves Booker's ass, for example. Hey, if you're right and I'm wrong, I'll let you win in a DM round of Infinite's non-existent multi. :D



rolant said:Booker approaches a big statue of a woman with the US flag resting on her arms...she really looks like Elizabeth. Agree? After seeing that, I had an epiphany - Elizabeth has been seemingly 'trapped' inside Columbia for 15 years...If this is the case then, these people probably idolised her in the form of that statue because they believe that she is Columbia's only hope, saving grace or saviour, if you will...


I very strongly believe the statue is a representation of Miss Columbia, a feminine symbolic embodiment of America largely overshadowed in American pop culture by Uncle Sam (see previous posts for a linking source, my argumentation, and connecting relation to the game world, probably somewhere on page 2). I don't think the society views Elizabeth in a Messianic light, given the fact that they directly engage in deadly combat in her presence (I can't tell from the demo if Elizabeth is explicitly targeted or not). Nonetheless, if you were holding Jesus hostage because you believed he was Jesus and his presence could give you leverage and security, you wouldn't risk killing him in a shootout. Within the fiction, Elizabeth is probably less of a god analogue and more along the lines of a political bargaining chip for the two antagonistic groups mired in a race and class struggle. I believe the two sides are named in the "definitive list" link on this page.



rolant said:I like ur description of BioShock and Rapture because what u love about the games is what I love too...when it comes to Infinite, yes, I agree with you about the feeling of apprehension after hearing about the game's breakaway from the alluring, emotional, inspiring world of Rapture that we know and love but, I must state that I am elated at what I've seen in the Infinite game play demo!! My question of whether Columbia will do what Rapture did for me has been answered by the video.


Apologies, but I believe we disagree. I was arguing that Rapture wasn't what made Bioshock for me. Instead, I was impressed by the experience and compelled to finish it because of the unique, dynamic nature of the arsenal (Plasmids, Tonics, gun and ammo upgrades) and the conflict (the Little Sister dilemma, and how the characterization of Jack was a twisted slavery allegory).


I'm impressed by what I've observed of Infinite so far, but I'm admittedly apprehensive about the Sky Line, and making Booker a voiced character. I can see the SL devolving into gimmickry, almost to the point where it's a QTE without the overlaid button prompts (because the player isn't in control of their movement, speed, and action while on the rail, as far as I can tell, and two-handed weapons aren't available because one hand is always attached to the line via the Skyhook). Voiced characters are generally on thin ice with me, because I've noticed--particularly this generation--the more a lead character in a video game says, the less I like or sympathize with them because they end up sounding incredibly stupid, forced, and disingenuous, especially if they're Tough Guy characters, whom Booker has been officially described as. Put it this way: the day Link becomes a fully-voiced character is the day I stop devoting a significant amount of my time, money, and attention to gaming.



ragingmudcrab said:Having the demo playable would really help with the theories. I hope it happens soon, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.


Besides an incredibly positive review, a demo is the most effective marketing tool in building buzz and good will about your game. If you believe me when I say so, then expect the Infinite demo to be the last big push in the promotion of the game, releasing about a month before the box lands on store shelves.

[rolanthunder]

heavengoneaway said:I very strongly believe the statue is a representation of Miss Columbia, a feminine symbolic embodiment of America largely overshadowed in American pop culture by Uncle Sam (see previous posts for a linking source, my argumentation, and connecting relation to the game world, probably somewhere on page 2). I don't think the society views Elizabeth in a Messianic light, given the fact that they directly engage in deadly combat in her presence (I can't tell from the demo if Elizabeth is explicitly targeted or not).



I see however, is it not possible that perhaps Elizabeth is Miss Columbia incarnate for the world of Columbia in Infinite? U have a point about the people not endangering her by fighting when she's present but, she made an appearance in the video all of a sudden - from an unknown point of entry - this is a theory so, it's possible that the people were unaware that she was 'free' to roam and when they saw her, like u say, we can't say for sure whether they targeted her or not but, all fire was directed towards Booker in all if not most of the scenes in an attempt to thwart his plan of saving her from them if indeed they do view her as their saviour...it's either or...the other 50% of my theory revolves around Elizabeth simply being held prisoner and the Columbians are trying to exploit her for their own selfish desires because of the power that she wields...

[rolanthunder]

heavengoneaway said:



undeniably said:You would recommend it, no doubt?


My recommendation is doubtless. RDR is an exceptional game, viewed through any of the prisms which define video games (technology, intent, design, and execution).

The reason why I love it is because for the first time I can recall as a player, I spent a meaningful amount of time in the game as a guy named John Marston. I don't want to spoil the game (I'd need another thread and forum to do so appropriately), but I was astonished when a video game asked me to be, simply and profoundly, a human being. There are other points when the game asks me to be a cowboy, a criminal, and a hunter. But to have all of these preconceived expectations suddenly fade until Marston, not Marston-as______ comes to the forefront of the experience, I admit to being plainly shocked at what I was witnessing and participating in.

Bioshock had moments of escape from the stencil and shroud of its nature as a piece of amusement. Something as simple as having Jack scream when he gets injured or shot has an explosive impact on the humanity of the game. The Doomguy grunted when he got hurt, and Gordon Freeman says nothing (except, curiously, when burned by fire, which is when he sounds like he's being given a paper cut), but to hear the man who is supposed to represent me in the world of the game blatantly shriek and bellow due to his peril, that turned a key somewhere. The very genuine response of screaming after you get shot or drilled made me give much more of a ☺☺☺☺ about trying to survive what was happening to my avatar in Bioshock. I hope Infinite carries this essentially human response over to Booker Dewitt.



And I am sure they will...the humanity aspect of games is what appeals to me deeply too - my will burns stronger to survive and fight the evil found in the game after hearing myself take damage...Bio 1 and 2 offer that in bucket loads...it makes u a better gamer too as it strengthens ur bond with your character who u have become...I think that we will probably hear more than just screams from Booker after taking damage since, he's a full-on voiced character who may be expected to say certain lines depending on the situation - it may not be colourful language rather, a few words of discontent directed at our attackers...

[iglegacy_solo]

The trailer is a cinematic piece and having listened to the PODCAST of it's Making, its clear they were having some fun with the Faux-Rapture intro, before pitching the hero and us viewers out in the bright bold shock of the new and tumbling down the myriad stories of sky borne Columbia. I was reminded of the falling thru sky traffic scene in 5th Element with tumbling taxis and aerial walkways. Columbia promises to be a city of contrasts and chaos, certainly light and sky bright with sunsets and sunrises in the clouds ( I do hope there is night too) but probably dark and decaying on the inside, with rooms, chambers and all sorts of steampunky add ons and atmospheres.


It's common in literature in the Gibson, Sterling, Womack tradition to have retro environments with wierd hi-tech and twisted social interactions, a confused co-existent timeline, all producing a sense of alienation even though the surface looks comforting. As the player we will be a stranger in a strange land beset by all manner of dangers for sure whilst attempting to carry out the mission. I imagine the end result graphically with the Unreal engine will be impressive.. From the gameplay example it looks a dangerous place none the less for its setting and the clashing moving buildings, massive drops, precarious sky rail and aerial combat potential. I am thoroughly looking forward to this 'Bioshock' version and think the way they are 'imagineering' new landscapes and concepts for the brand is a very innovative approach.

[8tol3s3]

hello all :) heres my two cents worth,the main story i think that will develop through the game is the relationship between elizabeth and songbird,we are told that this game is about sacrafice,yet we are not told who's,we assume its elizabeths,but i think thats a red herring,songbird is the key to the story.elizabeth depended on song bird as a child and i think we need to fill in the gaps a little here,now elizabeth has grown up and songbird hasnt,he now depends on her,we are gonna fall in love with songbird in king kong style proportions,those tears in the game footage are not elizabeths for herself,they are tears of her knowing that the only way out of this is the death of this big dumb childlike giant who now is so dependant he will never let go,that is why she says its worse then death returning to the tower with him.because of the inevitablility of whats eventually coming.now its how we learn of elizabeths relationship with songbird and this is how i think it will be done.POTENTIAL SPOILER ALERT PLEASE DONT READ ON IF YOU DONT WANT TO KNOW , THIS MAY BE SIGNIFCANT PLOT DEVELOPMENT.now we have seen what elizabeth is capable of with the alernate reality pockets where she attempts to bring a dying horse back to life and creates an alternate reality tear,now what if she can do this with memories,i mean create memory pockets that booker can walk around(a bit like the pensieve in harry potter) here we can see the developing relationship of her growing up with sonbird,and her eventual growing up with him,this is the only way i can see how we learn about these two characters and the only way we could emotionally understand elizabeth love for songbird and vice versa.also this has potential for other plot developments aswell.