Possible Theme for Second Expansion?

[Kukulcán]

As we have found out we will be getting more DLC Content and a lot more info about G&K.

But a discussion on the Civs thread made me wonder... what theme could they use in a Second Expansion?

Gods And Kings is obviously very euro-centric on the ren. era. Several civs arguably got into the expansion mainly due to the theme and the expansion.

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So what Themes do you think could be used in future expansions? What Civs could be incorporated for them?

For me one possible Theme and 9 Civs: "Civ 5 :: The Empires Fall Back"

The Imperial Era could work the best.

Kongo
Portugal
Brazil
Indonesia
Gran Colombia
Morocco
Zimbabwe
Comanche
Tibet

Another possibility in my mind Civ 5: Behemoths "Corporations and Civilizations"

- Brazil
- Israel
- USSR
- Poland... haha Venice for Real
- Papal States
- South Africa (Encompassing the Zulu)
- Portugal
(And then two more Ancient Civs)
- Swahili (Encompassing the vast Trading Cities)
- Indonesia

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I want to see how easy it would be to create themes and subsequent Theme Lists. Just to see how viable it would be off our heads

[JFD]

Civ 5: Empires and Revolutions.

The game could pick up where Gods and Kings leaves off, so from the 1700s until the end of the 20th Century. I could see it including Portugal, Tibet, and probably Poland and then Indonesia, Kongo and South Africa (if encompassing the Zulu). Then as a bonus Brazil, which would act as both an Empire and a break away state. New mechanics would be Governments and Revolutions, allowing you to choose governments (and have social policies tie-in with these governments - or your social policy choices evolve into your government) and split Happiness into a City-Wide as well as Nation-Wide mechanic, so that those that are unhappy with your government, religion or cultural makeup can form breakaway states.

Alternatively:

Civ 5: Unions and Nobles

This one could introduce corporations and supranational unions. So the civs could be the USSR, the HRE, the EU, the Papal States, Gran Colombia, and another. In game you would be able to form unions with other civs - likely this might go well with a revolutions mechanic as well.

In any case I don't think another expansion would have 9 civs. Probably 6, especially if there are at least 2 DLCs forthcoming (Portugal and the Zulu, my guess).

[Pouakai]

I love E&R as a name, although I don't think necissarily it should continue from G&K.

Tibet
Kongo
Majapahit
Zimbabwe
Gran Colombia
Timurids
Mamluk (?)
Venice

[JFD]

Of course it doesn't have to continue from Gods and Kings, but it would make a nice synergy. There could be a Crusaders Theme which the Mamluks and Venice could fit in. Otherwise I'd like to see Venice in a Rivals of Commerce DLC, with Venice and Genoa as a double pack.

[Shiav]

Civilization V: Suits & Greens
Expansion adds pollution/health factor, greatly expands modern era, adds a full UN with resolutions, interventions, humanitarian efforts, aid, etc. Also has international trade routes, blockades and embargoes. And taxation for population, allowing higher populations to produce more gold essentially meaning larger cities get a slight boost. This creates a multi-faceted end game and allows for comebacks or dark horse winners if the leader starts playing sloppy. Realistic in that the UK is no longer on top of the world. Keep up your game or get left behind.

Changes to existing buildings:
All production buildings produce an amount of pollution relative to their level (ie, factories produce -5 eco points) and add unhappiness (also relative)
Granaries/Aquaducts/Hospitals/etc remove 1 eco points

New Buildings:
Conservatory: +2 happiness, -2 eco points, +5% Great People spawning (like an upgraded garden, but buildable in all cities)
Nature Preserve: +2 happiness, -3 eco points
Recycling Depot: +2 production, -2 eco points
If too much pollution (let’s say 10) builds up for over 20 turns, tiles start to randomly reduce by one level (grassland-plains-desert)

Canada- Culture and Diplomacy focused civ, bonuses for having open borders/dof/etc
Australia- environmental civ, secondary focus navy
Pakistan- espionage focused civ, second flavour religion
Brazil- environmental and economic civ, bonuses for preserving rain forests, gold from higher populated cities
South Africa- economic civ, second flavour could be about incorporating CS as diverse ethnicities.
Indonesia- secular state, bonuses for non-state religions. second flavour could be jungle warfare
Israel- religion/science state. Can access both piety and rationalism. Pure kick ass.
Vietnam-guerilla warfare civ, bonuses on defence.
Argentina- negative environmental affects, economic boosts, gold/silver/gems boosts.

[JFD]

Israel- religion/science state. Can access both piety and rationalism. Pure kick ass.


Brilliant.

[Shiav]

Brilliant.

Thought it was quite clever, yes.

[Shiav]

Added taxation for population. Don't kill me Steth, but it'd be a great way to increase revenues and make higher populations relevant/desirable.

[Pouakai]

Civilization V: Red & Gold

International trade routes, embargoes, sanctions etc., expanded UN that comes earlier in the tech tree, revolutions and breakaway states (Civil Wars). All resources can be traded, used to make better resources (eg. Gold -> jewellery)

Venice
Swahili
Zimbabwe
Gran Colombia
Majapahit
Tuareg
Mapuche
Tibet
Portugal

Focus on economic or revolutionary / resistance civs. Tuareg would be a mix of the two, raider UU that earns gold for every turn it's on an enemy trade route

[Tahitian Moon]

This would be my dream post-GAK expansion, compiled with your good design ideas and my own thoughts. Theme would be the second half of the game, but also making the ancient era a bit longer to satisfy it's fans.

Main features:
Rebellions
When an Empire expands to a very large one and warmongers a lot, rebellion risk gets bigger and bigger and would spawn rebel units(barbarians) and in a worst case scenario a city would break off from an empire to form a new CS named that city, and then it's up to the player to either conquer it back or leave them at peace(independence in a way).
I think it would be a simple enough mechanic for game to handle

Pollution
When nation enters industrial era the new factor of pollution kicks in, hurts cities with big population and factories the most and cities with all forests chopped around them. Can be fought with specific buildings like wind power plants, national parks etc.. Again nothing too complicated but fun.

Expanded United Nations
When UN is built the familiar resolutions would be voted on between some intervals, could be trade embargos against rogue civs, banning of nukes etc.

A somewhat longer Ancient era
Just some new techs to make it a bit longer

Unit graphics diversity

I'd like to see the most common units to get new graphics, they could be just roughly lumped into asian, african, european, south-american graphic sets. At least the worker, scout and the most common units(pikeman, knight, muskets, riflemen, infantry) should get the treatment.

New Civs would be a mixture of colonial/post-colonial mixed with fan requests

Brazil - Food production, jungle and trade based bonuses
Boer Republic - Comes with boer Guerrillas
Indonesia - Majapahit flavors, religious
Assyria - Warmongers
Poland - UA: Fulfills the destiny of the poles to get them in Civ ;)

[Gooner]

I have to go in the complete opposite direction. I don't think we're getting another expansion.

I think we'll get a bit more DLC, but that will be the extent. There may be gameplay changes made through patches, but I think Vanilla + DLC + G&K could mean 40+ civilizations all up which will be more than enough to fulfill most requests for new Civilizations.

If they do another expansion pack, it could be to incorporate things that haven't been considered before, perhaps focusing more on micromanagement of cities or changing the way combat is run or they could introduce something completely different.

Personally, I'd be happy if they left it at G&K + DLC and started brainstorming about Civ 6. I love Civ V and I think G&K will be a great addition, but I'm concerned about them adding new concepts for the sake of it and ruining a great game.

[Pouakai]

In addition to my posts: Canals, a height system and straights

[Black Gate of Mordor]

This would be a dream pack. I myself don't think we're going to get another one - at least, not unless we get no more DLC.

Civilization V: Blood and Gold

Main features:

Civil War
When your empire is too large, or contains too many differing cultures, another nation can split off. You will be in automatic war with this civilization, but you can bargain for peace. The splitting nation, if formed from another culture, will presumably be the conquered state (for example, if you conquer Ethiopian and Ethiopian rebels form a nation, they now take the place of Ethiopia). If the conquered culture still exists or they are of your own culture, the leader of the nation will be an alternative leader and will have a different UA. Other uniques are the same (for example, if you are America and American rebels break free, they will have Lincoln as their leader if you are Washington).

Cultures
Each nation has its own culture. This culture remains in a city for quite a while, unless you purposely purge it. Purging a city may involve units (either military units or perhaps an inquisitor) and will produce negative relations with other nations, and especially with a nation with that culture. If you are of the same culture as a nearby city, and they go up in rebellion, and win, they may join your empire instead of forming a separate nation.

Trading & Economy
Greatly enhanced, including international trade routes, naval routes that can be blockaded, embargoes, etc. Taxation, and economic policies (expanded mercantile policy tree, removes gold-related parts of tree from there and changes it to a naval focused tree. Multiple economic trees, at least one for each era).

Schisms
Religions can be split. This involves cities (or nations) with the same religion but far differing culture. Religions that are not the state religion cause negative effects, and religions that have formed from a schism (for example, Protestantism if you are Christian) provide worse effects. For example, if you are Arabia and have Sunni Islam, any city of yours with Shi'a Islam is going to provide very different effects. Splinter religions do not have the same effects as the original religion - they are similar, but randomised.

Longer Early Game
The Ancient, Classical, and Medieval eras take longer to go through. Extra turns are added to the game, and the techs take longer to research (GK may have done this, actually).

UN
A UN which is beneficial to build, even if you're not going to 'Diplomatic' victory. Resolutions carry weight with the AI (for example, if the UN bans nukes and you fire one, the whole world, except for maybe your most dearest friends, will denounce you).

New Civilisations
Zulu
Portugal
Sioux
Venice
Tibet
Assyria
Poland-Lithuania
Kongo
Majapahit/Indonesia

[Pouakai]

Could the assimilation feature from Civ 4: RoM AND be worked into that (Conquered cities can construct the unique components of the original civ)

Nonetheless, I love the culture idea, and I think it *might* be possible with the religion system and a bit of LUA as a mod

[steveg700]

Israel- religion/science state. Can access both piety and rationalism. Pure kick ass.

Brilliant.
No fair! I cam up with it as a UA for Italy, "Vitruvian Spirit".

:mad:

[JFD]

No fair! I cam up with it as a UA for Italy, "Vitruvian Spirit".

:mad:

Well, Kudos to the both of you then.

[Shamajotsi]

Of what I've read, Black Gate of Mordor's ideas are closest to what I have in mind.

The Cultures and Civil War ideas are something I have contemplated about and even thought about trying to come up with a mod, but then I realised that even if I did succeed in that, I would not be able to change the AI to respond to the new mechanics.

What I have in mind is pretty much the same as what BGM has written down, with the exception that maybe it is better new civs coming from your culture to be entirely new. I know it would seem strange to be playing the US and a Korean nation to appear out of yours, but what if you are a really terrible Washington and there was more than one rebellion in your country? Alright, the first new leader will be Lincoln, but the next one - Lincoln 2 :P ?

Trading & Economy - I would, too, like to see it expanded, but maybe in a not so complex way. As it is now, trade routs bring 1.1 gold per citezen in the connected city + 0.15 gold per citezen in the capital city - 1 (formula taken from CivFanatics). How about trade routs giving money in a similar fashion based on the number and size of capitals and city-states your capital is connected with? Maybe such a formula should be tailored so that an empire with four cities, connected with half of the other civs and city-states recieves an equal amount of money from internal and external trade. This mechanic, of course, should come with the ability to be able to refuse the somebody's merchants to pass your borders. This in the early stages of the game could be quite devastating if you are what connects the other player with the rest of the world, so although he/she "covets lands that you own", he/she still might want to be your best friend. On the other hand, embargo-ing somebody might damage your reputation with other empires, as they will suffer too, if the majority of the international trade routs pass through your territories and the ones of the leader you embargoed.

Also - Corporations! I don't know how it should be implemented, but it has to be something unique and interesting, like the religions in G+K (of course, we cannot be certain whether this mechanic is so interesting or not, but at least sounds like it).

Also, how about Vassalage and Colonies? I haven't played the even-numbered Civs, so I don't know how well this was implemented in the fourth one, but apparently people think it was a bit of a useless mechanic. Despite that, I think that at least the ability to establish colonies will tie-in very well both with an expanded trading system and a cultures & civil wars mechanic. Besides, it may give opportunity for another pair of mutually exclusive policy trees - one about colonialism, in the spirit of this suggestion in the CivFanatics Forum (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=442437), and another one for leaders who refuse to go on with the mindless conquest of every empty patch of land, and instead decide to focus on cultural integrity.

P.S. And when suggesting new civs, don't forget that we should still have plenty of city-states to play with - we do not want 50 Civilizations and 25 city-states, do we ;) ?

[SamBC]

As I said in another thread on this topic, I would love to see it be about Trade and Industry, focus on economic factors. Economic (as opposed to diplomatic) trade with other civs, with scientific, cultural, financial and happiness benefits (but mostly financial). Resource chains of supply (as in manufactured resources made by consuming natural, or other manufactured ones), and an optional mode (like a scenario, but bolting on to all the flexibility of the base game) for expanding the near future. Nothing too wild. I don't think undersea cities would be a particularly good thing, though it could tie into near-future resources (well, it's a modern resource, but units to use it would probably be near future - Rare Earths), as it's looking like there may be rich undersea sources of those minerals.

Expand diplomatic trade to enhance or build on the new economic trade, so in later game you could have cultural exchange programs.

No second leaders, please, it just doesn't make sense with the model in the CivV. An extra unique for every civ could make things more interesting. Maybe. I'd like to see every civ have at least one UI or UB, and at least one UU - the third could be any of the three.

Late-game diplomacy being expanded so the UN is required for diplo victory, but doesn't trigger votes automatically - have it start with votes for other things. The ultimate Diplomatic Victory would instead be explicitly shepherding the creation of a global super-state, with yourself in charge.

I'd love to see formal formation of treaty organisations like NATO, but I think it would be mechanically difficult.

[SamBC]

Oh yeah, the OP sounds like it's saying there was confirmation of more DLC - where was this?

[istry555]

Oh yeah, the OP sounds like it's saying there was confirmation of more DLC - where was this?

I'm curious about this as well. I know it's generally assumed among the forums, but I don't remember seeing any official confirmation.

[Kukulcán]

I'm curious about this as well. I know it's generally assumed among the forums, but I don't remember seeing any official confirmation.

Well no official confirmation as of yet. But I (and others) remember seeing in the Pax Steams a user who had talked to one of the 2k Reps hear about stuff that if added would come in DLCs later.

[luciferkid]

Brazil - Food production, jungle and trade based bonuses

If Brazil gets in Civilization,it won't have any bonus related to Food or jungle . its UA would be based on their history .

[steveg700]

Don't we have this thread several times over now? Should I run and fetch my long ramblings about an "International Incidents" system?

The problem with stuff like pollution and civil wars is that it's purely punitive to the player. Many players don't want extra management, and they certainly don't want it if it provides no benefits even it's handled well. In fact, I'd say many players just want their success to snowball and bitterly resent losing a game if they didn't "do anything wrong", whatever that means. So, they want to get rid of stuff like insta-heals because there shouldn't be something unpredictable like that upsetting their precalculated victory, And they want a diplo system that ensures they can keep AI civ's pacified until the player feels like it's a good time to blitz them. Basically, they just want to go up,up,up, and I don't see them being pleased by the prospect of ragequitting games due to the collapse of their civ's from pollution or civil war.

[Shiav]

Don't we have this thread several times over now? Should I run and fetch my long ramblings about an "International Incidents" system?

The problem with stuff like pollution and civil wars is that it's purely punitive to the player. Many players don't want extra management, and they certainly don't want it if it provides no benefits even it's handled well. In fact, I'd say many players just want their success to snowball and bitterly resent losing a game if they didn't "do anything wrong", whatever that means. So, they want to get rid of stuff like insta-heals because there shouldn't be something unpredictable like that upsetting their precalculated victory, And they want a diplo system that ensures they can keep AI civ's pacified until the player feels like it's a good time to blitz them. Basically, they just want to go up,up,up, and I don't see them being pleased by the prospect of ragequitting games due to the collapse of their civ's from pollution or civil war.

If there's a civil war or natural disaster, they clearly haven't been doing everything right :p

Also, do these people not like history? Name one empire that was on top of the world and I will show you an empire that has collapsed into obscurity. The time's they are a changing, my friend.

[istry555]

Well no official confirmation as of yet. But I (and others) remember seeing in the Pax Steams a user who had talked to one of the 2k Reps hear about stuff that if added would come in DLCs later.

Great news!

[steveg700]

If there's a civil war or natural disaster, they clearly haven't been doing everything right :p
Well, depends on what causes those things. I play Tropico 4, and they had the clever idea to include natural disasters. They're basically just "BOOM", buildings destroyed, people killed, now go mop it up. Any system you add to a game, there needs to be A) something the player can push back against, and B) a reward for doing so effectively.


Also, do these people not like history? Name one empire that was on top of the world and I will show you an empire that has collapsed into obscurity. The time's they are a changing, my friend.
Well, now you've hit the nail on the head. Sid himself once mused that the intention of the game was to show the rise and fall of empires, but he realized that most people just want to rise. So, he had to do a course correction, and all of the elements that were intended to inevitably overwhelm a civilization were toned to indefinitely manageable.

[Shiav]

Well, now you've hit the nail on the head. Sid himself once mused that the intention of the game was to show the rise and fall of empires. Then re realized that most people just want to rise. So, all of the elements that were intended to inevitably overwhelm a civilization were toned to indefinitely manageable.

I think this is probably why my favourite 4X game of all time is Rome: Total War and its expansion, barbarian invasion. The expansion was meant as a way for people to be allowed to take their shot at sacking Rome and burning the empire to the ground. What I found much more fun was trying to hold together a fraying empire that was ripping itself apart at the seams. On any difficulty higher than medium it was a physical impossibility to not lose at least half of the western empire within five turns.

[Tahitian Moon]

Shiav,
you'll probably love the Fall of Rome scenario in G&K.

I read you choose either western or eastern rome and instead of social policies, you pick customized negative sp's that weaken your empire each time, while barbarians are knocking your doors.

I wonder what they are called, in historic sense?
"decadent citizens" -2 production to each city..

[Shiav]

Shiav,
you'll probably love the Fall of Rome scenario in G&K.

I read you choose either western or eastern rome and instead of social policies, you pick customized negative sp's that weaken your empire each time, while barbarians are knocking your doors.

I wonder what they are called, in historic sense?
"decadent citizens" -2 production to each city..

Should be fantastic! Kruelgor's mod is also excellent.

[Snerk]

I like Civ 5: Empire and Revolution. An expansion pack that focuses on the colonial era.

Currently civ 5 IMO lacks incentive to settle new lands in the post Medieval eras. The combined effects of the happiness penalty, possible set-backs in progress to build national wonders, SP cost increase, and military units needed to defend the new cities, results that you're often better off not expanding your empire to new lands.

An interesting feature could be a colonist unit made available by a renaissance tech. Like the settler this unit creates cities. But unlike it it creates puppet like cities called colonies. Maybe colonies can only be built overseas from you capital, or a minimum x number of tiles from it. These cities comes with a smaller happiness penalty, does not affect national wonders progress, and with less or no SP cost increase. You will not get the full gold or science income from them, but a good percentage. Not sure how much control should be given over the city management of colonies. Perhaps some sort of part control part autonomy.

As for negative impacts of colonies, that's where the revolutions come into play. A cool feature would be if you decide how high you would tax your colonies. I.e. how high a percentage of their gold income you want as your own income. The higher the tax, the higher the risk of a revolution. This risk also gradually increases as the eras pass, and as colonies grow. (having a colony into the modern era would be very hard). If a colony revolts, you can either grant it it's independence, or try to repress the revolt militarily. If you defeat the rebels within x number of turns, the revolt risk goes to zero for x number of turns and the colonies is under control again.

I'm not completely sure of what should happen with colonies you grant independence, or lose due to revolt. A possibility could be that they turn into a city state, perhaps with multiple cities if the colony had several cities. If you let them go, they start with a small positive relationship modifier towards you, if you lose them due to revolt, they start with a hefty negative modifier against you.

My two cents.

What do you think?

[Black Gate of Mordor]

Shiav,
you'll probably love the Fall of Rome scenario in G&K.

I read you choose either western or eastern rome and instead of social policies, you pick customized negative sp's that weaken your empire each time, while barbarians are knocking your doors.

I wonder what they are called, in historic sense?
"decadent citizens" -2 production to each city..

I think all the scenarios in the expansion actually sound really good. I might play them for once.