Is Steam mandatory? [Archive]

Black Gate of Mordor

08-30-2011, 02:21 AM

I hate to use steam. Can the game be played without installing Steam? Didn't IV and earlier versions install without steam?

Yes, they did run without Steam.

But there's a couple of reasons why.

a) Steam was launched in 2004, and didn't take off for a few years.

b) The PC market was doing fairly well back then, and Securom wasn't angering anyone too much.

Why it's being used now:

a) Steam, and Digital Downloads overall, are the future of PC Gaming. Been to a brick-and-mortar store lately? Looked for PC games? There's only one row of shelves, isn't there? And only mega-popular franchises there too? Within the next twenty years PC will become a rare form of gaming - at least in real life stores. DD will be huge, and boost the PC market, and in a short while brick-and-mortar stores simply won't stock PC games. Sad, but inevitably true.

b) Steam makes sure that you have updates. You will always be up to date if all your versions of the game are being played via steam. Unfortunately, this means that games that don't require steam aren't always up to date with their non-steam counterparts (Divine Wind 5.1, I'm looking at you).

c) It's the future. Get over it. As slowtarget said, there's no reason not to have it.

civvy

08-31-2011, 07:03 AM

tlhman

08-31-2011, 07:49 AM

stethnorun

08-31-2011, 08:12 AM

Lots and lots of reasons. Here are some, there are others I'm sure:

- Discs wear out. I used to shrug this reason off, until recently when I tried playing Crimson Skies, and then I was very angry.

- Most gamers have a much faster internet speed than you. Thus, my games download in an hour, tops. Yes that's longer than installing from a disc, but if you played games back in the day, you will remember that downloading and installing multiple patches in various orders could take upwards of 2 hours from start to finish.

- All games are gathered in one place, which can be accessed from any location.

- SUPER cheap game sales. Just try finding $2 games anywhere but online.

Those are just a few, there are a ton more, including ease of publishing and developing, leading to lower costs and more frequent content.

stethnorun

08-31-2011, 08:14 AM

"Been to a brick-and-mortar store lately? Looked for PC games? There's only one row of shelves, isn't there?"

It is sad, indeed. I (mid-thirties) have a 19 year old staying at the house for a while. He's playing x-box and I load up Civ. He actually, literally, was surprised that (1) there are games to play on the PC and (2) someone would voluntarily choose to play a game on the PC.

I tried and failed to convert him by the way... not that I really blame him. Call of Duty is pretty sweet.

Shocking that he didn't know (must not be all that inquistive about gaming culture) and even more shocking that he wasn't lured into it. But then, I find Call of Duty about as boring as a Office Space-style cubical desk job.

slowtarget

08-31-2011, 09:13 AM

Ok.....installed Steam. Put in my Civ V disc and it then took 5 hours to download using Steam. Is this the way this works for a new game?

Not to sound condescending, but the instructions in the box will take you through a DVD install, which would have saved you most of the download time (updates still need to download).

Wasnt it simpler to install a disc and immediately play? Trying to understand why we now will use Steam.

Not really, no. Considering that I can buy games on Steam and have them download while I make dinner or go to work or any number of other activities which would normally prevent me from being able to go to a store and buy a boxed game. Or, to give you an even better example: I bought Deus Ex a few months ago. Steam pre-loaded the game while I was doing... something. The day the game unlocked, it was sitting there waiting for me to start it up when I got home. Not only is that way more convenient than going to some box store and then waiting for a DVD install, but there's no DVDs to juggle and I don't have to worry about ever losing it.

slowtarget

08-31-2011, 09:19 AM

I tried and failed to convert him by the way... not that I really blame him. Call of Duty is pretty sweet.

CoD is fine... on the PC.

The really embarrassing part is that your son thinks that playing FPSes on an XBox is good. Not only are the graphics not crappified for out-of-date console hardware, but the control mechanism is sane. There's a reason why multiplayer FPS games very, very rarely allow console players to play against PC players (I can't even think of any example... but someone must have tried it, right?). The PC players would completely school the console players. It would be like a soccer match between a pro soccer (er... football) club against another soccer club wearing welding masks.

sectoid

08-31-2011, 09:20 AM

There sure aint no X-Box LAN-Parties with thousands of gamers attending. Is there even small ones? The death of PC-gaming has been discussed since first consoles, but it just wont happen. The way I see it, serious gamers will always have custom rigs, there just is no other way. Playing FPS games with a controller designed for supermario and auto-aim just doesnt work. Consoles are for kids and casually playing adults. I bought PS2 when it was first released mainly because my gf and her friends wanted to play Tekken and Spyro. Sure, Tekken was a lot of fun even for me, on those kinds of games consoles are a better option. But imagine civ on console.. No way. I will never buy another console.

_Pax_

08-31-2011, 09:57 AM

Been to a brick-and-mortar store lately? Looked for PC games? There's only one row of shelves, isn't there? And only mega-popular franchises there too?
Honestly, you're lucky if you find even THAT much.

Within the next twenty years PC will become a rare form of gaming - at least in real life stores. DD will be huge, and boost the PC market, and in a short while brick-and-mortar stores simply won't stock PC games. Sad, but inevitably true.
You're overly optimistic. What you give 20 years, I give 5 years. Tops.

b) Steam makes sure that you have updates. You will always be up to date if all your versions of the game are being played via steam.
Which is such a godsend! It is SO frustrating to re-install an older game, and then discover that you can't find all the patches for it anymore.

I'll also add this:

(d) You no longer have to keep a pile of game manuals or slips of paper with serial#'s written on them, in order to re-install an old favorite, two years later. I have bought and enjoyed PC games, and then ended up having to throw them out when I wanted to re-install them ... because I couldn't find the CD-Key, and thus couldn't install the game.

With Steam, I just click on the title in my games list, and then click the button labelled "install". After a moderate wait (depending on ISP speeds), POOF: game!

Wasnt it simpler to install a disc and immediately play?
Not really, no. Most people in the U.S. who're PC gaming enthusiasts have faster ISP service. I understand not everyone can afford that (until recently, 3MBit was the best I could do), but there it is, nonetheless.

Also, if you do your pre-order purchases through Steam, they let you pre-load the files (albeit in an encrypted, locked-out state) up to a week before launch; easy enough to let that churn away while you sleep, yes? Then on launch day, you only need about 5 or 10 minutes of additional downloading/decryption, and the game is playable.

That, by the way, is my literal experience with pre-ordering Deus Ex: Human Revolution. I downloaded everything about four days before launch; on Launch day, I was playing within fifteen minutes of turning my PC on.

- SUPER cheap game sales. Just try finding $2 games anywhere but online.
And maybe four or so times per year, EVEN CHEAPER game sales. I've bought normally $15 games, for less than $1.50 - "92% off" is REALLY nice. I've seen bundles of games, literally a given publisher's entire catalog, posted for 85% off, or sometimes even cheaper! (For example, during the Summer event, Valve put THEIR whole catalog up for 85% off; if I didn't already have almost every one of their games that I want, I'd've leapt at it!)

RE: Shooters on consoles?

I dislike KB+M for most shooters. They're TOO accurate, even _inhumanly_ so. Curse of having used real weapons in real life, I guess.

I also like using console controllers, because I have arthritis in my shoulders. Too long at a KB+M setup, and I'm in agony. With a controller or gamepad, though, I can hold it in my lap, and the position of my shoulders then doesn't cause that kind of pain.

^_^

wandmdave

08-31-2011, 10:46 AM

CoD is fine... on the PC.

The really embarrassing part is that your son thinks that playing FPSes on an XBox is good. Not only are the graphics not crappified for out-of-date console hardware, but the control mechanism is sane. There's a reason why multiplayer FPS games very, very rarely allow console players to play against PC players (I can't even think of any example... but someone must have tried it, right?). The PC players would completely school the console players. It would be like a soccer match between a pro soccer (er... football) club against another soccer club wearing welding masks.

This, x1000 this. Halo and Modern Warfare and other FPSes are good games but you got to have a mouse. Waiting for your cursor to scroll around at a max speed that is still rather slow compared to a quick flick of the wrist is annoying as hell, especially when someone is behind you.

Bomberross

08-31-2011, 11:31 AM

For me, the console is for rpgs. FPS and strategy games are so much better on the PC it's not even funny. Of course now you have the RPG/Shooter mash-ups coming out...what to do? :)

anandus

08-31-2011, 12:04 PM

The phone version (http://www.gameloft.com/mobile/civilization-v-game/) doens't use Steam, but it's not the same gameplay experience ;)

c) It's the future. Get over it. The future? It's the now.

sectoid

08-31-2011, 12:19 PM

Wow. That game is anserew to one particular gamers prayers. He was here week or two ago saying that he wanted to play Civ5 during boring meetings with his cell. Gotta find that thread and forward this link to him. ;)

tlhman

08-31-2011, 01:05 PM

Thanks to the responces to my original thoughts. I am now a believer and a "steamer".

sectoid

08-31-2011, 01:35 PM

Ok.....installed Steam. Put in my Civ V disc and it then took 5 hours to download using Steam. Is this the way this works for a new game? Wasnt it simpler to install a disc and immediately play? Trying to understand why we now will use Steam.

I dont know, did it take 5 hours to download patches for you? You dont have to download whole game if you possess the original DVD. Install from DVD, start steam and it will download patches. I've done this a few times.

Maktaka

08-31-2011, 02:33 PM

Thanks to the responces to my original thoughts. I am now a believer and a "steamer".I sure hope you're not from Cleveland.

Also, if you aren't familiar with Steam, make sure you're keeping an eye on it in June-ish, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. Steam has massive, catalog-wide sales during those times, with litteraly hundreds of titles on sale for 50%, 75%, or even 95% off. When distribution costs are pennies, even selling a title at $5 is almost pure profit for everyone involved.

I also like using console controllers, because I have arthritis in my shoulders. Too long at a KB+M setup, and I'm in agony. With a controller or gamepad, though, I can hold it in my lap, and the position of my shoulders then doesn't cause that kind of pain.You may want to look into a better office chair then or altering the elevation of what you've got now. Try to get a setup where you've got sufficient support for your arms so your shoulders aren't carrying the whole weight (which has caused me shoulder pain in the past over long gaming sessions, although I have no arthritis or anything like it). A lot of basic office chairs and desks are extremely poorly designed and it can take some futzing around with the chair's controls and repositioning of items on the desk to avoid pain.

That or inject your shoulders with steroids. Lovely lovely steroids.

_Pax_

08-31-2011, 02:57 PM

It's not the weight, it's the angle. I'd have to put the mousepad and keyboard lower than my knees to avoid discomfort. :(

Black Gate of Mordor

08-31-2011, 11:53 PM

I dont know, did it take 5 hours to download patches for you? You dont have to download whole game if you possess the original DVD. Install from DVD, start steam and it will download patches. I've done this a few times.

But the DVD is only the pre-release day patch. Any store bought disc will have to download all of the patches (which is about 6 and counting). If you've got a slow internet connection, it'd take a while. However, a much faster speed (at least 10 Mb/s) would handle this nicely.

slowtarget

09-01-2011, 04:15 AM

But the DVD is only the pre-release day patch. Any store bought disc will have to download all of the patches (which is about 6 and counting).

The number of patches is unimportant. Steam works with master images, not patch lists (such as Battle.net still does). When you install from DVD, Steam doesn't download 6 patches. It downloads (effectively) one patch, which consists of all of the differences between pre-release and the latest version. This is why you can't go back in versions. Steam has no (outward) tracking of the differences between two patch levels. It just has a new master image and a calculated set of files that are different between the master and what you've got on your disk.

For comparison, when you run a Battle.net game for the first time in months, you need to download each and every patch level between the old version and the current version. This means that some files are downloaded/updated only to be deleted and re-downloaded/updated in the next patch level.

sectoid

09-01-2011, 09:24 AM

But the DVD is only the pre-release day patch. Any store bought disc will have to download all of the patches (which is about 6 and counting). If you've got a slow internet connection, it'd take a while. However, a much faster speed (at least 10 Mb/s) would handle this nicely.

Well, I have 10/10 connection, but I dont think that downloading all patches on a 1Mb/s connection would be unbearable.. My first modem was 14.4k, dammit :P

Bomberross

09-01-2011, 09:41 AM

Well, I have 10/10 connection, but I dont think that downloading all patches on a 1Mb/s connection would be unbearable.. My first modem was 14.4k, dammit :P

EWW....was it one with the phone receiver hook-up? I still laugh to think how cool I thought that was back then! :)

Shiav

09-02-2011, 07:28 PM

main reason i support steam is because i used to have a game (original duke maybe? i can't remember..) that required 7 cd's for install. after scrounging my house i found....6. -.- viva la steam!

EWW....was it one with the phone receiver hook-up? I still laugh to think how cool I thought that was back then! :)

anyone else remember the "no one will ever need more than 640k memory?"

i remember when pentium 4 was the single greatest invention of human history. it was like zomgwtfroflpwnzbbq

_Pax_

09-02-2011, 08:10 PM

I remember being terribly, terribly impressed with my first home computer.

It was a Commodore 64. And as a fourteen year old boy, I thought it was (in the parlance of the day) wicked awesome ...! ^_^

Now? My refrigerator has more RAM and processing power than that C64 had, haha!

buchengshi

09-02-2011, 09:57 PM

What the? Is this thread being taken over by old people or something? :D

My favorite line (fromt the electronics/fortran teacher): "You'll never fill a ten meg hard drive." Cause, hell, that's 30 floppies worth. Who has that much stuff?

People complain about Civ taking 30 seconds to load... I remember going to watch TV while waiting for my 800 XL to load a game from the cassette tape drive.

Edit to add:
14.4k modem? That's 48 times the speed we had. I remember in college they added a high-speed modem line you could dial into, for those with 4800 bps modems. To be fair, that was plenty fast for poking around the internet in those days. Well, unless you were reading usenet groups. But that's what the computer lab was for, right?

NitroPhantasm

09-02-2011, 10:34 PM

- SUPER cheap game sales. Just try finding $2 games anywhere but online.

I recently leased/rented plants versus zombies for $2.99 on Steam. Excellent price even for a leased game...

which brings me to my point (1) ...

No one can *buy* CIV V... because it can never be owned. It is rented. And some day, when and if Valve stops supporting CIV V, your CIV V playing days are over. The terms of your lease have been fulfilled.

Its important to use the correct language so people don't develop false expecations of ownership. Gone are the days of CIV series ownership, and it does matter. Your computer requires a Steam umbilical cord... unless you never let your computer connect to the internet again... Then, it may be that your game playing will continue until your dated and never-updated computer meets its invariable demise... unless you reconnect to Steam, but hopefully its still supported...

which brings me to my other point (2) ...

Steam is cool when the prices are cheap because finally you're paying the price you should for a rented game. Paying the same price you would for a game you could own (ah yes, a licensed copy of the game for you particular folks) is not quite right in my book. But let the market drive those decisions. Until then, its Xbox whenever possible (somebody say Skyrim).

headkase

09-02-2011, 10:44 PM

I recently leased/rented plants versus zombies for $2.99 on Steam. Excellent price even for a leased game...

which brings me to my point (1) ...

No one can *buy* CIV V... because it can never be owned. It is rented. And some day, when and if Valve stops supporting CIV V, your CIV V playing days are over. The terms of your lease have been fulfilled.

Its important to use the correct language so people don't develop false expecations of ownership. Gone are the days of CIV series ownership, and it does matter. Your computer requires a Steam umbilical cord... unless you never let your computer connect to the internet again... Then, it may be that your game playing will continue until your dated and never-updated computer meets its invariable demise... unless you reconnect to Steam, but hopefully its still supported...

which brings me to my other point (2) ...

Steam is cool when the prices are cheap because finally you're paying the price you should for a rented game. Paying the same price you would for a game you could own (ah yes, a licensed copy of the game for you particular folks) is not quite right in my book. But let the market drive those decisions. Until then, its Xbox whenever possible (somebody say Skyrim).

In another thread (http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?113947-Enough-is-Enough-Get-Rid-of-Steam&p=1454411#post1454411), I mentioned a possible future (http://www.bluesnews.com/s/124941/valve-on-steam-trade-ins) for trading your Steam licenses. Basically, Valve isn't against it they're just trying to figure out how to make it work. Which is understandable because if they just allow you to give a title to someone else: after it has changed hands a few hundred times the bandwidth provided to each person to install it will probably cost more than what was paid for the title initially. Let's hope they figure something out! And, Valve is not going out of business anytime soon. If that happens in some unlikely future here's what I see happening: they release a Steam client (last version) which doesn't require Internet at all. Using the existing backup and restore functionality you archive your purchases to a more permanent medium than your Windows installation. Reinstall Windows, reinstall this Internet-less Steam client and using that restore your purchases. That's what I see happening if Steam ever reached end-game: which I just can't see happening within at least a decade!

NitroPhantasm

09-02-2011, 10:55 PM

In another thread, I mentioned a possible future for trading your Steam licenses. Basically, Valve isn't against it they're just trying to figure out how to make it work. Which is understandable because if they just allow you to give a title to someone else: after it has changed hands a few hundred times the bandwidth provided to each person to install it will probably cost more than what was paid for the title initially. Let's hope they figure something out! And, Valve is not going out of business anytime soon. If that happens in some unlikely future here's what I see happening: they release a Steam client (last version) which doesn't require Internet at all. Using the existing backup and restore functionality you archive your purchases to a more permanent medium than your Windows installation. Reinstall Windows, reinstall this Internet-less Steam client and using that restore your purchases. That's what I see happening if Steam ever reached end-game: which I just can't see happening within at least a decade!

You are one of the most forward thinking people I know who also understands this industry but reconciles this with what is fair for the consumer.

I say: Headkase for president!

Seriously. When are you going to become a boss and show people how this ought to be done. Adding to this, your insights about how computer art ought to be in the MET (etc) or the Library of Congress, you are very deep and forward thinking.

headkase

09-02-2011, 11:19 PM

Thank you NitroPhantasm, ;) :o :D

slowtarget

09-03-2011, 05:58 AM

You are one of the most forward thinking people I know who also understands this industry but reconciles this with what is fair for the consumer.

Hey wait... when I explained stuff like that months ago, no one cared. Granted, headkase might have been either less wordy or more eloquent, but still....

This seems like a good place to mention that Valve is already testing the waters with game trading. Using a beta client, you can trade gifted (but never installed) games. They are working on the mechanism that would let you shuffle them between users so that they can avoid the standard abuses and failures. Of course, since its only gifted games, there is limited usability (note: gifted games usually come from either ... gifts, or as bonuses when you buy other games). However, its not hard to see where its headed. The same mechanism could be used to trade normal games.

So why limit it to gifted games? Because the game studios would have to sign off on that. Most EULAs from game studios aren't really compatible with digital game trading. In order to really do it, you'd have to convince the studios that they won't be losing money from it. Of course, the same thing can be said about DRM-less music. At one point, we thought it would never happen. No record company would see sense, right? Well, it just took some time. I'm hoping the same thing happens here with Steam. Optimistically, I could imagine some form of trade/trade-in-for-Steambucks type mechanism in the next two or three years.

Reduced_Silver

09-03-2011, 06:09 AM

Well allow me to retort: slowtarget for Chairman, CEO, Emperor for life!!!

stethnorun

09-03-2011, 07:27 AM

Mekteus

09-03-2011, 11:15 AM

Steam suck...

Black Gate of Mordor

09-03-2011, 04:59 PM

Care to elaborate upon that, Mekteus?

Bomberross

09-03-2011, 07:36 PM

Care to elaborate upon that, Mekteus?

I wouldn't hold my breath on that retort :)

_Pax_

09-03-2011, 11:07 PM

Considering he got an infraction for the other comment along those lines? Yeah. Holding one's breath and waiting is strongly contraindicated.

Strudo76

09-04-2011, 08:54 PM

Yeah, fear of Valve going out of business and thus losing all previously purchased games is probably the ONLY valid, logical reason for being wary of Steam. But since Steam is growing by leaps and bounds every year (their average "currently online" numbers have gone up 50% from last year), the liklihood of Steam disappearing is nonexistent...unless the American economy collapses. But then we have much bigger problems on our hands, like learning to hunt and gather again.

It might not be as big a problem as people expect either. I play a game "X3:Terran Conflict", which I bought from Steam. Twelve months after release, the developer (Egosoft) generally remove all the DRM from their games. Obviously in the Steam case they cannot specifically remove the DRM, however I am now able to download the last patch from the Egosoft website and once installed, the game is essentially Steam free. Now before people get all excited over the possibilities, take extra special note and read it twice, that X3:Terran Conflict is NOT a full Steamworks title!. It has always been available on Steam from release day, but doesn't use much of the Steamworks API. It has no multiplayer mode either. It also should be noted that the boxed version doesn't require Steam to play, meaning that they already had a concurrently developed code base for a non Steam version.

Only listing it to show that even if Steam ends up the way of the dodo, the developers may be still able to release a patch that would allow players to continue playing. It would most likely be dependant on the level of integration of the Steamworks API.

NitroPhantasm

09-04-2011, 09:44 PM

Hey wait... when I explained stuff like that months ago, no one cared. Granted, headkase might have been either less wordy or more eloquent, but still....
Hmm. I see distinctions. I can say simply that he is not easily offended when you disagree with him and has some insight/ empathy for the consumer while acknowledging the changes in the industry. I'll leave it at that unless you want to know more.

builder680

09-05-2011, 12:13 AM

It might not be as big a problem as people expect either. I play a game "X3:Terran Conflict", which I bought from Steam. Twelve months after release, the developer (Egosoft) generally remove all the DRM from their games. Obviously in the Steam case they cannot specifically remove the DRM, however I am now able to download the last patch from the Egosoft website and once installed, the game is essentially Steam free. Now before people get all excited over the possibilities, take extra special note and read it twice, that X3:Terran Conflict is NOT a full Steamworks title!. It has always been available on Steam from release day, but doesn't use much of the Steamworks API. It has no multiplayer mode either. It also should be noted that the boxed version doesn't require Steam to play, meaning that they already had a concurrently developed code base for a non Steam version.

Only listing it to show that even if Steam ends up the way of the dodo, the developers may be still able to release a patch that would allow players to continue playing. It would most likely be dependant on the level of integration of the Steamworks API.

I played X3 TC over 2,000 hours. While it has flaws, I'd say it's one of the best games ever made. Anxiously awaiting more news on Rebirth.

stethnorun

09-05-2011, 12:30 AM

Hmm. I see distinctions. I can say simply that he is not easily offended when you disagree with him and has some insight/ empathy for the consumer while acknowledging the changes in the industry. I'll leave it at that unless you want to know more.

Coddling people so they "feel better" about what you are saying does not a substantive change in the argument make. He may be "nicer" but he isn't "righter".

Strudo76

09-05-2011, 12:32 AM

I played X3 TC over 2,000 hours. While it has flaws, I'd say it's one of the best games ever made. Anxiously awaiting more news on Rebirth.

I'm not as excited as I first was with Rebirth. Seems that too much I like is changing, and too much other stuff is staying the same. Still has potential to be great, but there just isn't enough info to say. But this is pretty OT for here. I'm strude on the Egosoft forums if you want to say g'day

NitroPhantasm

09-05-2011, 02:13 AM

Coddling people so they "feel better" about what you are saying does not a substantive change in the argument make. He may be "nicer" but he isn't "righter".Baseless generalities are not the basis of an argument either. Who "coddles"? I just appreciate someone who likes to have a conversation and does not become frustrated and angry if I have a different position even after being properly proselytized. Rehearsed one sided arguments do not aim to convey the complete truth, and a "suck it up" attitude gets you nowhere in a proper discussion. Honest consumers understand the protection of software companies from theft, but they do not understand intrusions that go way beyond this measure. The market will decide other matters like ownership.

stethnorun

09-05-2011, 04:12 AM

Baseless generalities are not the basis of an argument either. Who "coddles"? I just appreciate someone who likes to have a conversation and does not become frustrated and angry if I have a different position even after being properly proselytized. Rehearsed one sided arguments do not aim to convey the complete truth, and a "suck it up" attitude gets you nowhere in a proper discussion. Honest consumers understand the protection of software companies from theft, but they do not understand intrusions that go way beyond this measure. The market will decide other matters like ownership.

I would say, "Suck it up if you want to continue gaming on a PC. Or don't. I don't care, your loss."

NitroPhantasm

09-05-2011, 11:28 AM

I would say, "Suck it up if you want to continue gaming on a PC. Or don't. I don't care, your loss."You miss the point. I see the trjectory of change in the industry better than ever. Software companies make more money when their product becomes a service. Understood. We are to subscribe rather than own. This is not just about DRM - as many have said. Its about secondary markets. Software companies are counting on the increasing speed of the internet to facilitate distribution. This is seen in many other arenas outside of computer games (the movie industry, the book industry). We have had this discussion.

There is a risk here for the company though especially when it comes to computer games.

When a consumer recognizes he or she is subscribing rather than purchasing there will be an increased demand on service. Games have to actually work if people are to subscribe (and they may have to be cheaper). The reason consumers have been largely patient with CIV V, for instance, is because they believe the company is fixing their game with patches. When they begin seeing that they don't own the game, that they are subscribers, their patience with updates will become very short. They will demand service for what is a service. They will not play the game of subscribing as a QC team for a year.

Moreover, enthusiam about games that we see will drop. People are far more excited about owning a licensed copy of a game than subscribing. Tell someone: I bought you a subscription for Christmas. It does not have the same effect. Loyalty to companies and software series will drop once people properly view themselves as subscribers. Waiting for game owership is simply more exciting than waiting for a service to be provided. The emotional response and fan base structure will change in ways that have yet to be anticipated once people see that they are merely subscribers to a game.

And there's more. Should I go on?

stethnorun

09-05-2011, 12:07 PM

You miss the point. I see the trjectory of change in the industry better than ever. Software companies make more money when their product becomes a service. Understood. We are to subscribe rather than own. This is not just about DRM - as many have said. Its about secondary markets. Software companies are counting on the increasing speed of the internet to facilitate distribution. This is seen in many other arenas outside of computer games (the movie industry, the book industry). We have had this discussion.

There is a risk here for the company though especially when it comes to computer games.

When a consumer recognizes he or she is subscribing rather than purchasing there will be an increased demand on service. Games have to actually work if people are to subscribe (and they may have to be cheaper). The reason consumers have been largely patient with CIV V, for instance, is because they believe the company is fixing their game with patches. When they begin seeing that they don't own the game, that they are subscribers, their patience with updates will become very short. They will demand service for what is a service. They will not play the game of subscribing as a QC team for a year.

Moreover, enthusiam about games that we see will drop. People are far more excited about owning a licensed copy of a game than subscribing. Tell someone: I bought you a subscription for Christmas. It does not have the same effect. Loyalty to companies and software series will drop once people properly view themselves as subscribers. Waiting for game owership is simply more exciting than waiting for a service to be provided. The emotional response and fan base structure will change in ways that have yet to be anticipated once people see that they are merely subscribers to a game.

And there's more. Should I go on?

Well all of that is based on a flawed premise. Civ 5 isn't a subscription game. It's a liscenced/owned game. What you are describing is World of Warcraft. Further, subscription based gaming is almost dead (WoW is one of the last pay-to-play games left).

I understand that you can parse words and play the semantic game, but in the end, Civ 5 is no different than any other game in the last 15 years in terms of ownership. It just requires an extra utility program to run just as some games require punkbuster or launchers. It is not a service, it's a game.

NitroPhantasm

09-05-2011, 12:13 PM

Well all of that is based on a flawed premise. Civ 5 isn't a subscription game. It's a liscenced/owned game. What you are describing is World of Warcraft. Further, subscription based gaming is almost dead (WoW is one of the last pay-to-play games left).

I understand that you can parse words and play the semantic game, but in the end, Civ 5 is no different than any other game in the last 15 years in terms of ownership. It just requires an extra utility program to run just as some games require punkbuster or launchers. It is not a service, it's a game.Actually, I have a chance to sponsor your disillusionment. CIV V *is* a subscription from Steam. You are a Steam subscriber. What does SSA mean? It has a one time price, but the gaming industry will change this for games in the future. WoW is the future of gaming. Live and learn.

stethnorun

09-05-2011, 01:41 PM

Actually, I have a chance to sponsor your disillusionment. CIV V *is* a subscription from Steam. You are a Steam subscriber. What does SSA mean? It has a one time price, but the gaming industry will change this for games in the future. WoW is the future of gaming. Live and learn.

Hehe. It's such an advanced idea, that everything is trending away from it. Nice logic there, bud. Next you will start arguing that DVD sales are going to go up followed by land-line telephones. Why bother noticing trends when you can just make crap up?

NitroPhantasm

09-05-2011, 01:57 PM

Hehe. It's such an advanced idea, that everything is trending away from it. Nice logic there, bud. Next you will start arguing that DVD sales are going to go up followed by land-line telephones. Why bother noticing trends when you can just make crap up?Here's some simple logic for you.

Steam is growing. Consumers subscribe from steam (per the SSA). Subscriptions are therefore growing. Trending up Scottie.

stethnorun

09-05-2011, 01:59 PM

Here's some simple logic for you.

Steam is growing. Consumers subscribe from steam (per the SSA). Subscriptions are therefore growing.

You said the WoW paradigm is growing. You are wrong. WoW is pay-to-play. Pay-to-play is almost gone, as a pricing model.

Steam has absolutely nothing to do with WoW. Steam is more akin to what Gamespy used to be (external chat and matchmaking utility program). Steam is not a subscription based service.

I don't know how much clearer I can possibly be.

NitroPhantasm

09-05-2011, 02:01 PM

You said the WoW paradigm is growing. You are wrong. WoW is pay-to-play. Pay-to-play is almost gone, as a pricing model.

Steam has absolutely nothing to do with WoW. Steam is more akin to what Gamespy used to be (external chat and matchmaking utility program). Steam is not a subscription based service.

I don't know how much clearer I can possibly be.Did you or did you not sign a Steam Subscriber Agreement? The SSA trumps the EULA for CIV V which says I purchased a licensed copy of CIV V.

stethnorun

09-05-2011, 02:05 PM

Did you or did you not sign a Steam Subscriber Agreement? The SSA trumps the EULA for CIV V which says I purchased a licensed copy of CIV V.

Sigh. Fine whatever. You win the word parsing war. You aren't interested in talking about concepts, you are only interested in semantics. So congrats, you've driven me to apathy on the topic.

NitroPhantasm

09-05-2011, 02:08 PM

Sigh. Fine whatever. You win the word parsing war. You aren't interested in talking about concepts, you are only interested in semantics. So congrats, you've driven me to apathy on the topic.I did not know the pay as you go pricing model was meeting its demise. Do you know of any online evidence of this I could read?

Taking this into consideration: What form do you think subscriptions will go? Selling game additions piecewise?

(BTW: See the Steam software wiki - it describes Steam as having a "current business model of pay-to-play games".

stethnorun

09-05-2011, 02:20 PM

For references on pay-to-play going the way of the dodo, please research almost every MMO in the last 5 years. Free-to-play, with microtransactions are the future for most MMOs. In the same way that non-MMOs will be base game + DLCs. Even expansion packs are becoming obsolete.

Are there still pay-to-play games? Of course. But that's not the trend, and when those games finally end their runs, there won't be other ones taking their place. Just this week it was announced that Star Trek Online was going free-to-play.

And once again, none of this has anything to do with Steam (except for that bit about base game + DLC).

NitroPhantasm

09-05-2011, 02:23 PM

For references on pay-to-play going the way of the dodo, please research almost every MMO in the last 5 years. Free-to-play, with microtransactions are the future for most MMOs. In the same way that non-MMOs will be base game + DLCs. Even expansion packs are becoming obsolete.Funny you mention that. My two oldest kids are raging over Runescape. My daughter has played Fantage for a while. I see this as Zynga's model because it reminds of Mafia wars (which I long ago abandoned). I recall the strongest players were the ones who spent the most money - it wasn't as much as about "skill". This does seem to be growing as a business model. Well this explains Civ World.

_Pax_

09-05-2011, 02:53 PM

Actually, I have a chance to sponsor your disillusionment. CIV V *is* a subscription from Steam. You are a Steam subscriber.
I subscribe to Steam, yes (for $0.00/month).

However, I own a license to Civ5 (with the caveat that said license is associated irrevocably with my Steam account).

It has a one time price, but the gaming industry will change this for games in the future. WoW is the future of gaming. Live and learn.
No, WoW is not the future of gaming. Game after game is converting to Free-to-Play, or Hybrid. LOTRO, D&DO, Champions Online, City of Heroes, and in the not-so-distant future, Star Trek Online. Just to name a few, very recent converts to F2P.

All of them, by the by, MMOs. No single-player mode at all. Unlike Civ5 and similar games.

NitroPhantasm

09-05-2011, 03:22 PM

I subscribe to Steam, yes (for $0.00/month).

However, I own a license to Civ5 (with the caveat that said license is associated irrevocably with my Steam account).You don't. The SSA trumps the EULA. You are a subscriber plain and simple. Ownership status has changed. That's been vetted in the forums.

No, WoW is not the future of gaming. Game after game is converting to Free-to-Play, or Hybrid. I think stethnorun just said that.

_Pax_

09-05-2011, 03:36 PM

No, the SSA doesn't trump the EULA; there's not one single sentence in there that even comes close to suggesting the faintest thought of a whim of a possibility of a MAYBE in that general direction.

You don't grok contract law (nor legalese, which does not ascribe the same meanings to every word as plain English does) at all; that much is (painfully) obvious.

NitroPhantasm

09-05-2011, 05:46 PM

No, the SSA doesn't trump the EULA; there's not one single sentence in there that even comes close to suggesting the faintest thought of a whim of a possibility of a MAYBE in that general direction.

You don't grok contract law (nor legalese, which does not ascribe the same meanings to every word as plain English does) at all; that much is (painfully) obvious.Take that up with slowtarget. We went over this ad nauseum a while back.

slowtarget

09-05-2011, 05:59 PM

No, the SSA doesn't trump the EULA; there's not one single sentence in there that even comes close to suggesting the faintest thought of a whim of a possibility of a MAYBE in that general direction.

It does, but not in the way that Nitrophantasm's words suggest. The SSA doesn't re-write or modify the EULA, but it places restrictions and terms which are applied at a higher strength than the Civ V EULA. Since the SSA controls access to the game software, you must first comply with all of its requirements before the EULA even matters. The "strength" comparison exists only because of this. The two are distinct and unlinked, however, because of that, the Civ V EULA cannot force conditions on how Valve/Steam operates.

For instance, even if the Civ V EULA said that you could sell the license (or if a court stated you could), that portion of the EULA could not be used to force an allowance on the SSA. Valve could cancel your subscription due to a violation of the SSA, and while you might still "own" a license to Civ V, you'd have no ability to use it since the SSA was revoked.

...This is still a really boring topic.

_Pax_

09-05-2011, 06:37 PM

Well in that case, Slow, you could theoretically sue Steam for the value of the resold license (and probably the original purchase value of any other licenses associated with your Steam account). It wouldn't be worth the time nor trouble, mind. Nor would it be a guaranteed win. Even with the best legal team, I wouldn't give someone trying that more than a 40/60 chance of prevailing. Realistically, "snowball's chance in hell" comes to mind ... :)

My statement can still stand, though: the SSA doesn't say it trumps or supercedes the EULA for any games bought through Steam. And Steam can't say I don't own my license - all they can do is say "... but you agreed to follow our rules, in order to USE that license." Apples and Apricots - both fruits, both from trees,, both start with "ap" ... but not really the same thing after all.

...This is still a really boring topic.
Truth. Sadly.

slowtarget

09-06-2011, 09:38 AM

Well in that case, Slow, you could theoretically sue Steam for the value of the resold license (and probably the original purchase value of any other licenses associated with your Steam account).

I believe its been tried a number of times. Owning a license to a work of art does not guarantee access to that art, nor does it act as an allowance to obtain access to it at someone else's expense.

My statement can still stand, though: the SSA doesn't say it trumps or supercedes the EULA for any games bought through Steam.

Agreed. Saying it "trumps" the EULA isn't accurate. That was an oversimplification by NitroPhantasm caused, I am sure, by simple desire to state the spirit of the situation without spending a paragraph detailing the specifics.

And Steam can't say I don't own my license - all they can do is say "... but you agreed to follow our rules, in order to USE that license." Apples and Apricots - both fruits, both from trees,, both start with "ap" ... but not really the same thing after all.

Absolutely.

The comparison I made was this: A hotel sells you an XBox game which may only be played on their XBoxes. The use of that game is granted to you (a license) once you pay for a hotel room. The right to use the game is yours, however, the hotel can revoke your key (if, for instance, you vandalize the room). The fact that you can't get into the room doesn't change the fact that you have been granted the right to play the game. The license for that game cannot force the hotel to allow you into the room, and it cannot be used to force the hotel or game publisher to provide you an alternate method of playing the game.

Can you sue for loss of value? Maybe, however, it can be argued that you haven't lost the license, just the access to use it, which was never guaranteed.

As I said before: This is not something that should make anyone happy (except lawyers). However, it is the reality of business and this is the model that Valve uses to protect itself from the potential abuses and lawsuits involved with digital distribution.

papajack

09-06-2011, 02:19 PM

ravenstar68

09-06-2011, 04:02 PM

Hate to say it guys but I see a future where all games will require subscription to a download service to play. One only has to look at Origin. They've taken a lot of pointers from steam and gfwl and added their own in game overlay. GTA IV required both Rockstar and GFWL clients to be installed.

It's probably only a matter of time before EA will require purchasers to have an Origin account also.

westyofoz

09-06-2011, 04:44 PM

Doom days is coming for me if all games require Steam to play

I live in a country where pirates games are everywhere

I don't earn much and Civ 5 cost me a lot compare to what I earn but fully understand to support developer
to produce better games, I will always buy legit copies

But lately with games tie up with Steam . my loyalty begin to collapse ..I just don't understand why are developers / publishers punishing your loyal customer with such a move

I believe Steam has it own good point but dont I have a choice ? At least give me a chance to choose

I'm afraid you will be disappointed. I don't like Steam either. However, it is a money puller for developers allowing DLC which produces ongoing revenue. I see this being the future of gaming sadly, becuase when it comes down to it, it is to make money and those of us who don't like Steam will have to get over it or revert to console games or something.

stethnorun

09-06-2011, 05:18 PM

I'm afraid you will be disappointed. I don't like Steam either. However, it is a money puller for developers allowing DLC which produces ongoing revenue. I see this being the future of gaming sadly, becuase when it comes down to it, it is to make money and those of us who don't like Steam will have to get over it or revert to console games or something.

See, this is a good example of a logical, rational person. He clearly doesn't like the reality of the situation, but he's also not deluded enough to think that things are going to change direction as long as he refuses to see that reality.

Bravo, westyofoz.

papajack

09-06-2011, 05:23 PM

stethnorun

09-06-2011, 05:35 PM

I always get ridiculed by my friends for paying so much for legal copies whereby they get to play he same game for free and will end up in heated arguments

Sadly . now I tend to agree with them more and more ...I am slowly turning to the dark side ....

Then you have no morals and neither do your friends. Sure, you will end up getting stuff for free, but you will also be human scum, no different than the London looters. Maybe you can live with that. I sure couldn't.

slowtarget

09-06-2011, 05:57 PM

I always get ridiculed by my friends for paying so much for legal copies whereby they get to play he same game for free and will end up in heated arguments

Sadly . now I tend to agree with them more and more ...I am slowly turning to the dark side ....

I hope your friends never complain about the decreasing quality of PC games... because they are the problem, and you'll join them if you stay on your path. As someone who actually cares about the future of PC gaming, I don't really care if you want to benefit from others work without paying them, but don't expect me to care either about any of your opinions. In my mind, if you're not paying for a game, then you should get zero voice in evaluating the game, and developers should give you absolutely none of their time. You can go enjoy your unethical behavior in silence.

Harsh? Sure. Just about as harsh as willfully undermining other people's hobby to serve your own selfish desires.

Olek

09-08-2011, 05:33 AM

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.....

stethnorun

09-08-2011, 06:09 AM

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.....

Um...what? Try for clarity next time.

Black Gate of Mordor

09-09-2011, 01:39 AM

Um...what? Try for clarity next time.

He's quoting the Bible. It's a scene where Jesus is preaching, then is approached by Jewish priests with a prostitute. Under Jewish law set by Moses (which Jesus says he follows) she must be stoned to death. Under his self-imposed laws, he says that you should not kill. It's a trap set by the Jewish priests to show that he is simply a charlatan. He draws what is now known as the Ichthys in the sand to pass time to think, than says 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. It works around both of the laws that he has imposed upon himself and teaches.

However, I too don't understand why it has been mentioned. Not only can I see no allegory for this Biblical phrase, but most people wouldn't know this (I only know this because we learnt it in our stupid Bible Studies class this term).

slowtarget

09-09-2011, 04:02 AM

He's quoting the Bible

Er.... yeah. I don't think the problem has to do with the historical context of the quote.

However, I too don't understand why it has been mentioned.

Right. So, you'd like some more clarity?

Is Olek implying that we shouldn't call people who pirate games unethical losers who are working to undermine PC gaming because we've probably broken some rules in the past? That seems... illogical to me. Was it some misguided attempt at humor? I don't really see the funny in it. Was it just a random cliche proverb? Seems the most likely.

stethnorun

09-09-2011, 05:50 AM

Er.... yeah. I don't think the problem has to do with the historical context of the quote.

Right. So, you'd like some more clarity?

Is Olek implying that we shouldn't call people who pirate games unethical losers who are working to undermine PC gaming because we've probably broken some rules in the past? That seems... illogical to me. Was it some misguided attempt at humor? I don't really see the funny in it. Was it just a random cliche proverb? Seems the most likely.

Yeah I knew it was from the Bible :p

I mean, sure he has a point. I used to pirate games all the time. This was before I had a firm grasp on Objectivism and realized just how wrong it is. That said, I always knew it was wrong. I didn't call it pirating, I called it stealing. Because even though I was doing something immoral, I never let myself use alternate words to mask the truth from myself.

Aethrwolf

09-09-2011, 12:11 PM

Not to sound condescending, but the instructions in the box will take you through a DVD install, which would have saved you most of the download time (updates still need to download).

Not really, no. Considering that I can buy games on Steam and have them download while I make dinner or go to work or any number of other activities which would normally prevent me from being able to go to a store and buy a boxed game. Or, to give you an even better example: I bought Deus Ex a few months ago. Steam pre-loaded the game while I was doing... something. The day the game unlocked, it was sitting there waiting for me to start it up when I got home. Not only is that way more convenient than going to some box store and then waiting for a DVD install, but there's no DVDs to juggle and I don't have to worry about ever losing it.

a. Wrong, DVD install does not in any way contain the full install info, its MUCH more than updates you need to download to play. That's in relation to the game. DVD DOES however contain a full Steam install, which then requires you to download all ITS updates. I also have to say that I initially had a much lower level of dislike for Steam than I do know. The REASON I am gaining an active dislike for it is actually all the condescending remarks that fall like a rain of manure on anyone who dares express a dislike for Steam. You yourself usually don't drop to that level, but I have seen a few responses by you that raised my eyebrows a bit.

slowtarget

09-10-2011, 09:19 AM

a. Wrong, DVD install does not in any way contain the full install info, its MUCH more than updates you need to download to play. That's in relation to the game. DVD DOES however contain a full Steam install, which then requires you to download all ITS updates.

That's not disagreeing with what I said. If you install from the DVD, you won't have to download the full game. You will have to download and install any/all updates issued between the game release and now. Yes, that includes updates to Steam as Steam is a required game component. It also requires any updates to DirectX and possibly the Runtime libs. The updates for the game are much smaller than the full game, and are downloaded as a difference from the master, not as a list of individual updates.

And the updates for Steam are much smaller than the updates for the game. Seriously. Way smaller.

Mega-Dolphin

09-10-2011, 09:42 AM

From my experience with Steam games from a disk, the disk install is much faster than the Steam install. On one computer, I installed Supreme Commander 2 from Steam. The download took about 3 hours. I installed on another computer from disk. The download time was about 45 minutes.

However, Steam games on disk usually don't contain all the game files at RTM time (the SupCom2 disk did not contain the game executable, for example) so Aethrwolf is right in that aspect. However, a DVD install does significantly cut down on install times and download size.

Maktaka

09-10-2011, 05:15 PM

If you're one of the lucky mooks with a multi-terrabyte drive to put backups of all your Steam titles on, you can reinstall from a backup of the game even faster, usually just a couple minutes. As I discovered at a recent LAN party, aside from the obvious fact that those backups are taken of the game's current state (i.e. fully patched) they can also be used by anyone who has bought the game. We got almost 20 people up and running with TF2, an over 10 GB install, it just a few minutes.

slowtarget

09-10-2011, 07:33 PM

If you're one of the lucky mooks with a multi-terrabyte drive to put backups of all your Steam titles on, you can reinstall from a backup of the game even faster, usually just a couple minutes.

Indeed, and this is the easiest way to do OS reinstalls. If you've got a terabyte disk, you shouldn't be using it unpartitioned (though I know loads of manufacturers do). If you've got it partitioned well, you just need to have Steam make a backup archive of your games on the non-system partition. Once you reinstall the OS and Steam, have it restore from the archive. Its fast and you don't need to re-download anything.

Olek

09-10-2011, 10:53 PM

Er.... yeah. I don't think the problem has to do with the historical context of the quote.

Right. So, you'd like some more clarity?

Is Olek implying that we shouldn't call people who pirate games unethical losers who are working to undermine PC gaming because we've probably broken some rules in the past? That seems... illogical to me. Was it some misguided attempt at humor? I don't really see the funny in it. Was it just a random cliche proverb? Seems the most likely.

I wasn't trying to be funny.
I'm saying that your either a hypocrite or a saint, your judging people for doing something wrong/illegal, and I'm not just talking about game piracy, unless you have a clean slate yourself, then your not in a position to put others down.

And your attempt at clarity fails, it's just conjecture.
Personally I used to do it as well when I was a youngster, why?, the simple fact that I could not afford to buy computer games, now I'm old, I work, I can afford the games, I'm not going to judge anyone else for doing what I used to do, even though I can see now the problems it may cause, but can they not be in the frame of mind I was when I was younger?, convincing myself that it was ok.

slowtarget

09-11-2011, 06:04 AM

I wasn't trying to be funny.
I'm saying that your either a hypocrite or a saint, your judging people for doing something wrong/illegal, and I'm not just talking about game piracy, unless you have a clean slate yourself, then your not in a position to put others down.

I can think of only a few games that I played without paying for them, and those were of the more uncertain "lent" type. The people who lent them to me gave me the original media, but I didn't know (or care, much) to ensure that they weren't still playing them. In all cases but two, I ended up buying the game, too.

Ignoring that: Pointing out that someone is wrong on some issue does not require that you never be wrong on any other issue. It's silly to insist that judges and juries for a case on Assault must have never had parking tickets.

I'm not going to judge anyone else for doing what I used to do, even though I can see now the problems it may cause, but can they not be in the frame of mind I was when I was younger?, convincing myself that it was ok.

And I'm trying to convince them that it's not. Saying that I shouldn't advertise the facts that its wrong and that people who do this are harming the market because... they should figure that out for themselves.... from someone else... who isn't following your advice... Yeah, I'm having trouble figuring out how that might make sense.

Short story: No matter what my personal history is, here is a known fact: Piracy is illegal, and more importantly, it is harming the PC gaming market both by convincing people to implement annoying DRM and by driving them to make decisions that further annoy the rest of us who are honest. I don't have to be a saint to declare that fact. Would it be hypocritical for me to say they are scum? That's debatable. However, I don't remember saying that. I merely said they were unethical and selfish in respect to that issue, and that since they didn't pay for the game, they should enjoy no rights to express their approval or disapproval of the game to the publisher and get no communication in response.

_Pax_

09-11-2011, 07:47 AM

I for one am 110% in Slow's camp on this, Olek.

I won't claim to have NEVER pirated a copy of ANYthing. In the past I have, and I knew it was wrong at the time; I never used a justification as flimsy as "I couldn't afford it", though; I can't afford a Ferrari, either ... does that make it okay to steal one?? (FWIW, the primary case was a matter of "I can't FIND it for sale, anywhere, at ANY price!" ... not even on eBay, not even after two years of looking..)

Regardless, I feel entirely justified in saying that those who still do pirate things, ESPECIALLY the ones who cry poor-mouth, are doing something wrong.

Saurus the Second

09-11-2011, 11:13 AM

No. Please look at the System Requirements (http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?83251-System-Requirements-FAQ) and Steam FAQ (http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?77593-Civ5-Official-Steamworks-FAQ).

I find that the majority of people who dislike Steam, dislike it because they think it forces advertisements on them. This is a setting. It's clearly labeled. You can turn it off. The next largest group of people who dislike Steam are under the impression that it steals resources from their system that could be used playing games. This is serious Windows95 thinking. Like Windows95, it is seriously out-of-date and no longer reflective of actual reality. The resources that the Steam system uses on your PC is miniscule and will not have any measurable impact on the running of your games.

You forgot the uneven pricing issue ... Which I believe is the main reason most Europeans and Australians hate steam ...

_Pax_

09-11-2011, 11:54 AM

Except, that issue you have with pricing? Isn't Steam's fault. THE GAME PUBLISHER SETS THOSE PRICES.

SamBC

09-11-2011, 12:42 PM

You forgot the uneven pricing issue ... Which I believe is the main reason most Europeans and Australians hate steam ...
The pricing's usually bad for the eurozone since it got so strong (publishers price based on $1=€1 when it's more like $1.5=€1) but it's not so bad in sterling.

Strudo76

09-11-2011, 05:19 PM

You forgot the uneven pricing issue ... Which I believe is the main reason most Europeans and Australians hate steam ...

Really? Damn. And I was really really hoping to get into the "most Australians" group too.

Strudo76

09-11-2011, 05:21 PM

The pricing's usually bad for the eurozone since it got so strong (publishers price based on $1=€1 when it's more like $1.5=€1) but it's not so bad in sterling.

In Australia, the pricing problem is that currently $1AU = $1US, but games priced at $50US in the US are priced at $90US in Australia.

slowtarget

09-11-2011, 08:20 PM

You forgot the uneven pricing issue ... Which I believe is the main reason most Europeans and Australians hate steam ...

I know _Pax_ already covered this, but apparently, this has to be said dozens and dozens of times before people start to understand:

Prices on Steam are set BY THE PUBLISHER. Regional pricing schemes are set BY THE PUBLISHER.

Yes, prices in Australia are stupid. Blame the publishers and the retail stores for continuing to sustain that stupid pricing model. In this case, Steam is not your enemy. Steam has shown a willingness --even eagerness-- to adopt unified pricing schemes, but the PUBLISHERs and BOXED RETAILERs are stopping them.

You want to protest that pricing model? So do I. Tell me where to bring my (virtual) sign. And you know what? I bet Valve would be right there with us. Better pricing means more game sales for them.

_Pax_

09-11-2011, 10:46 PM

Heck, Valve would provide the drinks and snacks for all of us on the picket line. Yes, I said "us" ... because, like Slow, I'd be right there, waving my sign and chanting my slogan(s), too.

Black Gate of Mordor

09-12-2011, 03:32 AM

I'm fairly sure that Valve is on Australian gamers' side. Take Portal 2 for example. At release, it was $50 US on Steam. At that time, that's about $57 AU. Take the five US discount if you preordered it (not to mention you got Portal as well) and it's about the same price. Unfortunately, most games in Steam are still priced the same as the store (I bought Shogun 2 instore, and to my surprise the Steam copy was exactly the same price, give or take a few cents). I don't really think that the Euro price is too bad - they probably should be a bit lower, but it's not a totally dire situation. For example, if I could have spent the American price on games here instead of double, I'd probably own a couple more games now (or have much more money).

slowtarget

09-12-2011, 03:58 AM

I'm fairly sure that Valve is on Australian gamers' side. Take Portal 2 for example. At release, it was $50 US on Steam. At that time, that's about $57 AU.

That's the example I was referring to (fairly silently): With their most recent game --when they were in charge of setting the price-- Valve opted not to adhere to the Australian "Gaming Tax".

_Pax_

09-12-2011, 01:17 PM

Which just proves Valve's pro-gamer/customer awesomeness even more. :)

Saurus the Second

11-11-2011, 08:24 AM

I know _Pax_ already covered this, but apparently, this has to be said dozens and dozens of times before people start to understand:

Prices on Steam are set BY THE PUBLISHER. Regional pricing schemes are set BY THE PUBLISHER.

Strange enough, the publishers blame YOU.
Publishers and developers and Steam endlessly blame each other. In this way, no-one can ever be blamed. It's a commonly used deception.
Dont take us for fools, Slowtarget. It's offending.

On the other hand, angry gamers don't pay for their games anyway..

slowtarget

11-11-2011, 08:57 AM

Strange enough, the publishers blame YOU.

The publishers blame gamers? I'm sure that's not what they intend... not publicly at least. Of course, gamers, can be argued to be the reason for high prices (the whole "what the market will bear" pricing strategy), but I don't honestly believe that is the case with Australian and Eastern European pricing discrepancies. I tend to believe the hypothesis that these are leftover pricing levels from times when imports had a reason for being higher priced, and the prices simply aren't deflating. If this is true, the prices should drift back in line with the rest of the world as currency inflates. However that's a strong should and I'm not convinced that greedy publishers won't increase their prices to match inflation, regardless of the pricing discrepancy.

Publishers and developers and Steam endlessly blame each other. In this way, no-one can ever be blamed. It's a commonly used deception.

Wait... you're saying that you've seen publishers saying "We wish we could price it lower, but the stores won't let us?" I'd like to see that statement. I've yet to see a case where the store declared the MSRP (ie: the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price). Please, post your source for that. For Brick and Mortar stores, publishers can only set recommended prices, but the stores usually respect them (somewhat) and then discount to encourage sales. Direct-sell retailers like Steam, Direct2Drive and so forth cannot (are contractually barred from, in most cases) select a lower (or higher) price than the one dictated by the publisher. I can't see an instance where the pricing doesn't originate with the publisher. Perhaps there is one. Feel free to cite one.

As for developers, yes, its not uncommon for them to complain about the prices their publishers set for a game. I know there were some developers that expressed anonymous annoyance at the jump from $50 to $60 for the top-tier AAA games, since their costs hadn't actually increased 20%. Of course, if a studio needs a publisher, then it's not really in much of a position to complain since the game wouldn't really exist (or be profitable) without the publisher.

Dont take us for fools, Slowtarget. It's offending.

It's offensive that you think I am implying you are a fool. I don't think I've said anything to convey that message.

Saurus the Second

11-11-2011, 11:38 AM

The publishers blame gamers? I'm sure that's not what they intend... not publicly at least. Of course, gamers, can be argued to be the reason for high prices (the whole "what the market will bear" pricing strategy), but I don't honestly believe that is the case with Australian and Eastern European pricing discrepancies. I tend to believe the hypothesis that these are leftover pricing levels from times when imports had a reason for being higher priced, and the prices simply aren't deflating. If this is true, the prices should drift back in line with the rest of the world as currency inflates. However that's a strong should and I'm not convinced that greedy publishers won't increase their prices to match inflation, regardless of the pricing discrepancy.

I don't care about prizes in australia or eastern euopre right now.
The only reason we Scandinavian pay too high a prize is simply something that is leftover from Bush extremely costly war in Iraq and the failure to caputre the oilfields quickly enough. Thus, the dollar dropped in value and US is desperate for Euros.

Europeans are more clever than Americans (who by design do not need to be clever) and Scandinavians, beeing forced to live in a inhospitable climate, do better than other Europeans on most international tests also for this reason.
We also know how to circuit highway-robbery (one way is to import products from Åland - an independent province in Finland) from were we can be buy tax-free and often freight-free products regarding certain spheres of products. It requires some involvement, but it can most certainly be done - and it's fully legal.

Wait... you're saying that you've seen publishers saying "We wish we could price it lower, but the stores won't let us?" I'd like to see that statement. I've yet to see a case where the store declared the MSRP (ie: the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price). Please, post your source for that. For Brick and Mortar stores, publishers can only set recommended prices, but the stores usually respect them (somewhat) and then discount to encourage sales. Direct-sell retailers like Steam, Direct2Drive and so forth cannot (are contractually barred from, in most cases) select a lower (or higher) price than the one dictated by the publisher. I can't see an instance where the pricing doesn't originate with the publisher. Perhaps there is one. Feel free to cite one.

No, I have not seen this. But here in Finland the prize for a game may vary as much as 50% depending on what store you buy it from. Most expensive is to buy a new game over the net, like steam. The next expensive thing is to buy the game from a local store. The cheapest way to buy a game is to buy it from a national internet-store who are fred from taxes or for one reason or another sells the game considerable cheaper that would be expected. Theoreticaly you might be correct in your statement, but it means nothing. In scandinavia the customer is the king. Too bad we do not control steam.

As for developers, yes, its not uncommon for them to complain about the prices their publishers set for a game. I know there were some developers that expressed anonymous annoyance at the jump from $50 to $60 for the top-tier AAA games, since their costs hadn't actually increased 20%. Of course, if a studio needs a publisher, then it's not really in much of a position to complain since the game wouldn't really exist (or be profitable) without the publisher.

I'm pretty certain it was the publishers idea to publish an unfinished game. I'm almost certain it was the publishers idea to create a game with very little content so that gamers would be forced to constantly pump out more and more money while the game still is beeing plagued with bugs. So yes, we could have a serious discussion about who is worst villain here - the publisher, the developer or steam. The only thing for sure is that they are all scumbags.

It's offensive that you think I am implying you are a fool. I don't think I've said anything to convey that message.

Well, I frankly do not attest you are beeing malevolent - but you are beeing somewhat ignorant. You need to do you homework better. In particular regarding how business works outside the states.

inseeisyou

11-11-2011, 06:47 PM

Direct-sell retailers like Steam, Direct2Drive and so forth cannot (are contractually barred from, in most cases) select a lower (or higher) price than the one dictated by the publisher. I can't see an instance where the pricing doesn't originate with the publisher. Perhaps there is one. Feel free to cite one.

I could go into great detail about how your understanding as to how much control Steam (Well, Valve really - I would use the term Steam also as you do, but someone will inevitably be along shortly to scold me that "Steam is just a piece of software!!!!") truly has over pricing of the software they offer is flawed, but suffice to say a great example is laid out in great detail and I believe would be an interesting read for you here:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2042379

_Pax_

11-12-2011, 01:49 AM

I don't care about prizes in australia or eastern euopre right now.
You should. Prices for digitally-distributed products should be exactly the same (before applicable taxes of any sort, i.e. VAT), anywhere in the world.

The only reason we Scandinavian pay too high a prize is simply something that is leftover from Bush extremely costly war in Iraq and the failure to caputre the oilfields quickly enough. Thus, the dollar dropped in value and US is desperate for Euros.
... um ... even if that paranoid nonsense were 100% true, that's still NOT STEAM'S FAULT.

Europeans are more clever than Americans (who by design do not need to be clever)
Excuse me??

The only thing for sure is that they are all scumbags.
... for, what? Wanting a roof over their heads, clothes on their backs, and food on their tables? And maybe a few nice luxury items? Oh, and being able to provide all that for their children, too?

Yeah. What horrible, despicable scumbags they must all be, to want something completely unreasonable like that in return for their hours and hours of work.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2042379

Note, that Valve/Steam were only recommending a reduction in prices. The publisher still had the final say-so on what the price would be - and in those exact examples, whether their product would be available in those regions at all.

Noone has ever said "Steam has zero input", only that Steam does not make the final decision.

Saurus the Second

11-12-2011, 07:48 AM

Slowtarget. You can deliver me warnings as much as you want - but that won't change nothing. You are nothing but a coward.

Saurus the Second

11-12-2011, 08:07 AM

You should. Prices for digitally-distributed products should be exactly the same (before applicable taxes of any sort, i.e. VAT), anywhere in the world.

I don't mean I don't care but one man cannot save the planet all by himself. You must focus on something. In my case, I do not have enough time and energy to solve the australian problems. My sympathy is with the australians though.

... um ... even if that paranoid nonsense were 100% true, that's still NOT STEAM'S FAULT.

Whos fault is it then? Who is to blame? Who chose steam as a delivery platform?
And yes, we Europeans are paranoid to the extreme - we even think that Israel is the greatest threat to world peace - even Obama admitted he disliked Mubarak some days ago (the microfone was accidentaly on)

Excuse me??

Out of every developed country, Americans have the lowerst I.Q. Americans are particulary awful when it comes to foreign languages, Geography, Biology ans History outside America. The reason for the low I.Q is partly due to the ammount of money Americans have at their disposal. Scandinavians have a vast area but little population and this causes problems when building infrastructure witch can whitstand harsh and chanaging wheater condition. Would you know a little bit more about biology, then you would know that harch conditions promotes intelligens.

Note, that Valve/Steam were only recommending a reduction in prices. The publisher still had the final say-so on what the price would be - and in those exact examples, whether their product would be available in those regions at all.

Noone has ever said "Steam has zero input", only that Steam does not make the final decision.

But they affect the output, right? That matters

_Pax_

11-12-2011, 10:09 AM

I don't mean I don't care but one man cannot save the planet all by himself. You must focus on something. In my case, I do not have enough time and energy to solve the australian problems. My sympathy is with the australians though.
You're not getting it - the problem is one and the same, no matter where you are. It's not "an Australian problem" that is somehow separate from higher pricing in other countries. Artificially-inflated game pricing is precisely ONE problem, that manifests in many places.

Whos fault is it then? Who is to blame? Who chose steam as a delivery platform?

The publisher, of course.

Out of every developed country, Americans have the lowerst I.Q. Americans are particulary awful when it comes to foreign languages, Geography, Biology ans History outside America. The reason for the low I.Q is partly due to the ammount of money Americans have at their disposal.

Okay, that's offensive enough, I'm slapping you with a report-to-moderator myself.

Would you know a little bit more about biology, then you would know that harch conditions promotes intelligens.
No, that's wrong. Harsh conditions do not "promote intelligence". They may drive evolution, but you're not a different species either.

But they affect the output, right? That matters
Sure it does. But not enough to make THEM the ones to blame.

Again, the final say in the matter is the Publisher. If they have their heart set on X price, that's what it will be sold for. Period, end of story.

inseeisyou

11-12-2011, 10:22 AM

Note, that Valve/Steam were only recommending a reduction in prices. The publisher still had the final say-so on what the price would be - and in those exact examples, whether their product would be available in those regions at all.

Noone has ever said "Steam has zero input", only that Steam does not make the final decision.

That's not what I got from the e-mail at all.

"...we will also be changing your USD pricing in the CIS Countries. We will apply an approximate 40% discount to the USD price in the follwoing countries to bring the pricing more closely in line to their regional pricing."

tfordp

11-12-2011, 10:26 AM

...
Whos fault is it then? Who is to blame? Who chose steam as a delivery platform?
And yes, we Europeans are paranoid to the extreme - we even think that Israel is the greatest threat to world peace - even Obama admitted he disliked Mubarak some days ago (the microfone was accidentaly on)

Out of every developed country, Americans have the lowerst I.Q. Americans are particulary awful when it comes to foreign languages, Geography, Biology ans History outside America. The reason for the low I.Q is partly due to the ammount of money Americans have at their disposal. Scandinavians have a vast area but little population and this causes problems when building infrastructure witch can whitstand harsh and chanaging wheater condition. Would you know a little bit more about biology, then you would know that harch conditions promotes intelligens.

But they affect the output, right? That matters

HAHA, do you even know what you're talking about? Jeez. When you speak of 'we Europeans', you do of course only mean 'I'.

Slowtarget. You can deliver me warnings as much as you want - but that won't change nothing. You are nothing but a coward.

Well done, personally insulting a moderator should be good for a quick ban.

_Pax_

11-12-2011, 10:30 AM

That's not what I got from the e-mail at all.

"...we will also be changing your USD pricing in the CIS Countries. We will apply an approximate 40% discount to the USD price in the follwoing countries to bring the pricing more closely in line to their regional pricing."
Look at the second link, which is an image of the tables referred to in that email. Look at the header for the middle column: "Suggested Pricing in Russia (Rubles)".

And the publisher still has the option to not sell in that territory, through Steam, at all.

Bomberross

11-12-2011, 10:31 AM

HAHA, do you even know what you're talking about? Jeez. When you speak of 'we Europeans', you do of course only mean 'I'.

Well done, personally insulting a moderator should be good for a quick ban.

I'll add a second to that. We don't need these kinds of comments here.

oblio

11-12-2011, 11:07 AM

Having worked for a Helsinki based company and having prowled the bars in Helsinki with my head office collegues more than I should have, I might be tempted to stereotype all Finns as being drunkards (and unhappy ones at that). But I won't because its not true. Just as its not true that Swedish heritage Finns are superior to Sami heritage Finns. I sense in the posts above some pent up jealously for perceived living conditions of citizens of other countries but the Finns I know (and Norwegians and Danes and Swedes for that matter) are all very content to live where they are now. Living next door to the US, my own compatriots also mostly don't want to be American, even though our costs for identical goods in the same chain store can be 10% to 25% more.

Why does a product like Civ V need to be the same price everywhere? Local markets have local cost and tax structures and may have different distribution models, all of which can impact on the ultimate retail price. Many jurisdictions have wholesale level taxes, duties, fees etc. applied before the retail price is calculated.Exchange rates fluctuate. Retail markups also change from country to country, region to region so for a common net back to the publisher, market A may be more expensive than market B at retail. Lastly, at the end of the day pricing is what the market will bare... if you don't like the price, don't buy it. Its not unfair, its business. And if you don't like where you live, move....

If you want to complain about international pricing inquities, complain about gasoline. Why isn't it globally priced? $.20 USD/litre in Venezuela and what 2 GBP in the UK and 2 euros or more a litre in much of Europe? And before you say its an oil producer thing, in Canada its today CAD$1.25/litre or more but only USD$1.00 a litre in the US where most of the Canadian oil goes.

Saurus the Second

11-12-2011, 12:50 PM

Then what? I have abandoned this game long since. And I'm nost insulting no one. It is just that truth hurts.

QuantumTarantino

11-12-2011, 02:43 PM

That's not what I got from the e-mail at all.

"...we will also be changing your USD pricing in the CIS Countries. We will apply an approximate 40% discount to the USD price in the follwoing countries to bring the pricing more closely in line to their regional pricing."

Then your reading comprehension, for lack of a better term, is lacking.

The Communication, was in regards to switching from USD to RUB, and in doing so, the default price point, the one that corresponds with the point the developer had chosen, would decrease when converted back to US Dollars, in order to normalize the prices with local retailers.

The Developer then can choose to allow the conversion automatically, or change their price point, increasing the RUB cost.

Bomberross

11-12-2011, 02:57 PM

Then what? I have abandoned this game long since. And I'm nost insulting no one. It is just that truth hurts.

...so why is this guy even here?

QuantumTarantino

11-12-2011, 03:10 PM

Then what? I have abandoned this game long since. And I'm nost insulting no one. It is just that truth hurts.

You are throwing around comments that amount to nothing more than racist stereotypes. Take American out of your comments and replace it with Jew, re-read it, and ask yourself, what former world leader you sound like.

Black Gate of Mordor

11-12-2011, 03:40 PM

Why does a product like Civ V need to be the same price everywhere? Local markets have local cost and tax structures and may have different distribution models, all of which can impact on the ultimate retail price. Many jurisdictions have wholesale level taxes, duties, fees etc. applied before the retail price is calculated.Exchange rates fluctuate. Retail markups also change from country to country, region to region so for a common net back to the publisher, market A may be more expensive than market B at retail. Lastly, at the end of the day pricing is what the market will bare... if you don't like the price, don't buy it. Its not unfair, its business.

The problem is that in Australia there are no taxes on games that wouldn't increase the price so much. The Australian dollar is almost on par with the American one, but we still pay $100 for a game? Not to mention that with digital downloads there should be no extra costs. We should get every single game for $50 US online (the USD eliminates the problem of exchange rates) and in stores they should be no more than $60. I mean, when a new handheld game comes out and it's $70? That's ridiculous.

And if you don't like where you live, move....

Yeah, sure. I'll just move. Because the closest place that has cheaper games, and I can speak their language, is either LA or Marseille (and even then I don't really know that much French), or Dover. Do you understand how much it costs just to fly there? What about immigration? Costs of buying houses and such? You can't just tell people "Oh, yeah, well just move".

SlickSlicer

11-12-2011, 05:21 PM

then you would know that harch conditions promotes intelligens.

"Harch" [sic] conditions do not produce good spelling or grammar though, apparently.

Strudo76

11-12-2011, 06:39 PM

You can deliver me warnings as much as you want - but that won't change nothing.

I guess using a double negative is ok if you have superior European intellect. :eek:

_Pax_

11-12-2011, 07:12 PM

[...]
*applause* Well said, Sir.

IllusionOfLife

11-12-2011, 07:13 PM

Ok guys, let's get back on topic please. Let us mods deal with whoever needs dealing with; don't add to the problem by calling out other members.

_Pax_

11-13-2011, 12:36 AM

Not so much a "calling out", as an expression of being deeply offended. Point taken, however. I'll shut up about that issue, now. :)

Saurus the Second

11-16-2011, 08:36 AM

...so why is this guy even here?

You might as well ask, why am I a member of Amnesty International .. becouse I think it is fun to think about people beeing horrible mistreated and tortured?

I don't like beeing a member of amnesty international. It makes me sad. But someone has to do something while the rest is beeing ignorant.

Just so, issues around steam, 2K and the like will never be fixed unless someone fight them. It's not about the game itself.

_Pax_

11-16-2011, 10:59 AM

... you're likeining "fighting 2K about Civ5" with membership in Amnesty International ...?!?

...

...

Did your mother drop you on your head OFTEN, when you were a baby? Or is once all it took?

Shiav

11-16-2011, 11:36 AM

snip

while we all appreciate the lol's, we cant judge him without meeting him in real life.

Although that is a bit of a stretch man I mean amnesty international, an organization fighting for human rights, VS Valve, a company that makes good games and good software.

Are you saying the fight for human rights is equivalent to the fight for lower international prices on luxury items made on different continents in different languages?

slowtarget

11-16-2011, 11:40 AM

As much as I'd like to keep this thread open as a sink for complaints against Steam, if it devolves into complaints against other people, it will get closed.

Want to discuss Steam and its required nature for Civ V? This is the thread to do it! Beyond that, let's try to keep it civil and somewhat on topic.

Olek

11-16-2011, 05:47 PM

Lastly, at the end of the day pricing is what the market will bare... if you don't like the price, don't buy it. Its not unfair, its business. And if you don't like where you live, move....

If you want to complain about international pricing inquities, complain about gasoline. Why isn't it globally priced? $.20 USD/litre in Venezuela and what 2 GBP in the UK and 2 euros or more a litre in much of Europe? And before you say its an oil producer thing, in Canada its today CAD$1.25/litre or more but only USD$1.00 a litre in the US where most of the Canadian oil goes.

There is a big difference between fuel and computer games, for one, local Governments place taxes on fuel, our country has at least 3 that I know of, these tax's will vary between countries.

Secondly, we are buying games direct from an American company, just the same as Americans, exact same method, through a bloody phoneline, we are not pumping fuel through a long hose connected to a service station in America.

We have a free trade deal with the USA, so forget about import taxes and such, so tell me, what extra cost is there to valve for me to download a game from them compared to an American?, all they have is a file on their server which we pay our service provider to download, it just keeps duplicating the file, what effort on their part is there where they deem it nessesary to charge us double USD?

_Pax_

11-16-2011, 11:13 PM

Again, Olek: it's not Steam / Valve setting those prices. They suggest prices, but they don't have the final say.

The Publisher does.

So, here's a question for you - what's the price in Australia, converted to US dollars, for these Valve products:

Half-Life 2
Portal 2
Left 4 Dead 2

Those, you can blame Valve for their pricing decisions.

But a game like, say, Skyrim? Or Deus Ex: Human Revolution ...? No, it's not their call, it's not their decision, so it's not their "fault".

QuantumTarantino

11-16-2011, 11:49 PM

what extra cost is there to valve for me to download a game from them compared to an American?, all they have is a file on their server which we pay our service provider to download, it just keeps duplicating the file, what effort on their part is there where they deem it nessesary to charge us double USD?

There is one BIG one.

Australian retailers, knowing they will get ZERO sales, if games are sold on steam at US prices, have told their wholesale partners, that if this happens, they will remove all products from the companies involved from their retail shelves.

IE - If Skyrim is offered at a discounted price over retail on Steam, Bethesda, and all its partner products, lose all their shelf space in retail.

This may not be a big deal in a few years time, but right now, it is.

_Pax_

11-17-2011, 12:01 AM

Yeah, what QT said.

Olek

11-17-2011, 02:34 AM

There is one BIG one.

Australian retailers, knowing they will get ZERO sales, if games are sold on steam at US prices, have told their wholesale partners, that if this happens, they will remove all products from the companies involved from their retail shelves.

IE - If Skyrim is offered at a discounted price over retail on Steam, Bethesda, and all its partner products, lose all their shelf space in retail.

This may not be a big deal in a few years time, but right now, it is.

I hope you are an Australian so you can walk down to your local EB or Game shop, when you walk in, you will probably see a dark corner down the back, if you look hard enough, you may be lucky and find a few PC games.

Sarcasm aside, the PC game section in these stores were just about dead before Steam came along, the shelf space for PC games in these retail stores where shrinking monthly, I've seen a few posts on these forums claiming that Steam saved the PC game industry.

Not only that, EB which is probably Australias biggest Game retailer is owned by who?, America, so their wholesale partners are most likely in the USA.
So in the USA, how does EB deal with steam?, have EB removed all of Bethesda's products from their shelves? or are they selling at the same price as steam?

Black Gate of Mordor

11-17-2011, 03:16 AM

QuantumTarantino

11-17-2011, 03:37 AM

I hope you are an Australian so you can walk down to your local EB or Game shop, when you walk in, you will probably see a dark corner down the back, if you look hard enough, you may be lucky and find a few PC games.

Sarcasm aside, the PC game section in these stores were just about dead before Steam came along, the shelf space for PC games in these retail stores where shrinking monthly, I've seen a few posts on these forums claiming that Steam saved the PC game industry.

Not only that, EB which is probably Australias biggest Game retailer is owned by who?, America, so their wholesale partners are most likely in the USA.
So in the USA, how does EB deal with steam?, have EB removed all of Bethesda's products from their shelves? or are they selling at the same price as steam?

EB is not a "retailer" in this conversation.

In the US it is Best Buy, in Canada it is Future Shop, in australia, it appears to be Harvey Norman.

EB Games/ Gamestop dont do huge business in PC Games, and are a specialty retailer, a threat from EB, holds ZERO Weight, as they dont do the kind of purchasing, that they can use to leverage OTHER lines of business, like retail giants can.

How does EB in the US deal with steam? They dont, its a non factor to them, However, Best Buy, makes sure that the publishers dont undercut physical product, by pricing lower on steam.

Civ 5 was 59.99 on steam, and 59.99 in store, here in canada.

slowtarget

11-17-2011, 04:22 AM

It's important to note that the latest estimates say that 50% of PC game purchases come from digital distribution (that I know of... feel free to update me). That means that 50% still come from ordinary stores. I assume that those ordinary stores in Australia would react the same way the stores in the US reacted at the thought of publishers selling games cheaper on Steam than they were in stores: With legal threats. I don't think it ever got to a court, but there were reports that many large retailers were going to complain about unfair treatment, as publishers were effectively favoring one retailer over others, and that broke their current agreements.

I don't know how much validity exists in that complaint, but after those rumors came out, I don't think I've ever seen non-sale prices on Steam below the MSRP reported for retailers (which they routinely undercut by small amounts).

Shiav

11-17-2011, 09:04 AM

_Pax_

11-17-2011, 09:27 AM

.... which implies that 300K - that's 300,000 copies at, what, US$50 each? So, US$15,000,000 (fifteen million) in business through means other than direct download. Now, an unspecified number of those are probably still being ordered online, but will be delivered on physical media. And the rest of those $15M in physical copies, have been bought from brick-and-mortar stores.

And that's just one title.

And more, that's just pre-orders.

Factor that across, say, just twenty titles a year ... and across both pre-orders and ongoing post-Launch sales ... and you'[re talking about a sum that is somewhere near a quarter billion dollars per year. Definitely still a significant part of the market.

Shiav

11-17-2011, 09:31 AM

slowtarget

11-17-2011, 12:56 PM

.... which implies that 300K ... have been bought from brick-and-mortar stores.

Screw that... It means that TOR has sold nearly one million copies in pre-order. Crap. I'd have lost that bet.

Looking forward to the beta weekend...

Shiav

11-17-2011, 01:21 PM

Screw that... It means that TOR has sold nearly one million copies in pre-order. Crap. I'd have lost that bet.

Looking forward to the beta weekend...

east coast had a massive beta last weekend, didn't you get invited? we took about a quarter of all accounts from usa/canada. still less than a month to launch if you preordered so it doesn't matter too much, almost better to not get invited

Olek

11-17-2011, 10:45 PM

EB is not a "retailer" in this conversation.

In the US it is Best Buy, in Canada it is Future Shop, in australia, it appears to be Harvey Norman.

EB Games/ Gamestop dont do huge business in PC Games, and are a specialty retailer, a threat from EB, holds ZERO Weight, as they dont do the kind of purchasing, that they can use to leverage OTHER lines of business, like retail giants can.

How does EB in the US deal with steam? They dont, its a non factor to them, However, Best Buy, makes sure that the publishers dont undercut physical product, by pricing lower on it.

Civ 5 was 59.99 on steam, and 59.99 in store, here in canada.

As a matter of fact, EB is a retailer in this conversation, we are talking Australian retailers, and that what they are, they have stores all over Australia, not only that, they own their closest competitor Game group, even in Canada they have more stores than your Future shop.
Harvey Norman? lol.

The fact is that PC titles in retail stores have a very small presence compared to concole games, and I very much doubt that these companies can force another company on their pricing, it's like saying I can take another company to court because they are selling computer systems cheaper than myself, the court would laugh out loud.

Like Black Gate of Mordor said, the retail outlets here would not lose any sleep over the loss of PC games in their stores in Australia, I know because I live here, PC games are very small percentage of their business, so I doubt they would be threatening Steam with court action because of being undercut, and if itunes can get away with it, I fail to see why Steam could not.

stethnorun

11-17-2011, 11:31 PM

There is a big difference between fuel and computer games, for one, local Governments place taxes on fuel, our country has at least 3 that I know of, these tax's will vary between countries.

Secondly, we are buying games direct from an American company, just the same as Americans, exact same method, through a bloody phoneline, we are not pumping fuel through a long hose connected to a service station in America.

We have a free trade deal with the USA, so forget about import taxes and such, so tell me, what extra cost is there to valve for me to download a game from them compared to an American?, all they have is a file on their server which we pay our service provider to download, it just keeps duplicating the file, what effort on their part is there where they deem it nessesary to charge us double USD?

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it. In short, you get charged more because you will pay more. Maybe all of those insane taxes have conditioned your cultures to expect everything in life to be overpriced and thus, you just go along with it. Just a guess, but one way or another, Americans won't pay higher prices, and you will. Case closed.

Black Gate of Mordor

11-18-2011, 05:56 AM

EB is not a "retailer" in this conversation.

In the US it is Best Buy, in Canada it is Future Shop, in australia, it appears to be Harvey Norman.

Ye... No. Harvey Norman is tiny - they deal in computers, TVs, and other electrical equipment. I've never seen a single game in any of their stores.

In Australia, we have either your specialty stores (EB, GAME), electrical stores (JB Hi-fi's the only one with games) or larger stores, slightly comparable to Wal Mart (K-Mart, Target).

EB Games/ Gamestop dont do huge business in PC Games, and are a specialty retailer, a threat from EB, holds ZERO Weight, as they dont do the kind of purchasing, that they can use to leverage OTHER lines of business, like retail giants can.

If they don't, why do they care at all? All it means is more space for console games.

How does EB in the US deal with steam? They dont, its a non factor to them, However, Best Buy, makes sure that the publishers dont undercut physical product, by pricing lower on steam.

I don't understand your logic. You're saying that the store that relies exclusively on games can afford to be undercut than the store that is spread out and makes a lot more money on other things?

slowtarget

11-18-2011, 07:14 AM

If [EBGames and Gamestop] don't [do a large volume of purchasing], why do they care at all? All it means is more space for console games.

I think you misunderstood... or maybe I misunderstood you. The point was that EBGames (in USA) doesn't matter because they don't move enough volume to apply pressure on publishers. Walmart/Target/Best Buy/etc move games in much larger volumes and they are capable of pressuring publishers to

Put another way: Most publishers wouldn't care if EBGames said "We won't stock any of your future games". However, they would very likely give in to any reasonable demand if Walmart said the same thing. Walmart represents a significant source of revenue. EBGames doesn't. EBGames benefits from this because the publisher isn't going to (can't) treat different retail stores differently.

I don't understand your logic. You're saying that the store that relies exclusively on games can afford to be undercut than the store that is spread out and makes a lot more money on other things?

No, he's saying that EBGames has no power to force the actions of the publishers, as explained above. Walmart et al, do. And publishers still give in to demands from physical stores because they still represent a sizable revenue stream. As most game publishers are corporations of some sort, the decision to just give up a revenue stream is something that is unlikely to be popular with the board/investors. Walmart et al still put pressure on publishers to not be undercut because game sales are a noticeable revenue stream for them, too, and their investors would be just as annoyed at the loss.

How do you break the deadlock? Consumers. Slowly but surely, consumers are switching to digital distribution. This has already drastically eroded the power held by retail stores, and it will continue until the revenue provided by the stores won't be enough to justify their special treatment in a market driven by digital distribution.

SVPM

11-18-2011, 07:22 AM

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

This is an over simplification. Purchaser don't want to buy all at the same price. Unfortunatly, except in really particular market, it is impossible to sell an item to the price the purchaser would pay for it.

Everything is worth the amount that maximize the societal surplus. That's all theory of course.

_Pax_

11-18-2011, 09:40 AM

The fact is that PC titles in retail stores have a very small presence compared to concole games, [...]
Actual shelf-space, yes. Actual BUSINESS, not so much.

Locally (U.S. Northeast), GameStop has almost zero PC games on it's shelves.

But online? They do mail-order sales of a large number of titles, and in enough volume to maintain an online storefront for that purpose. Note, these are not "downloadable" games, they're the physical-media, in-a-shiny-box copies that you used to take from the shelf to the register yourself.

[...] and I very much doubt that these companies can force another company on their pricing, it's like saying I can take another company to court because they are selling computer systems cheaper than myself, the court would laugh out loud.
(A) GameStop can bring pressure to bear on a Publisher by refusing to carry ANY of that publisher's products. And that means, in turn, not paying for advertisements about their having those games for pre-order or sale. The publisher, to maintain the same awareness in the market, now has to spend more on advertising ... while having lower net sales. Lose-lose for the publisher.

(B) if you had a contract stating that the publisher would not sell to other retailers for a low enough price that would enable them to undercut you? The court wouldn't laugh at you. They'd say "yeah, you're right" ...! And guess what a lot of the brick-and-mortar stores have? And have had, for decades, now?

(C) As Slowtarget says, it's the big chains like Wal-Mart (notorious for strong-arming the people they buy products from) that are applying the pressure. If the publisher let Steam sell the game for half of MSRP, Wal-Mart would insist on being able to sell physical copies for the same price point - and they wouldn't buy ANY copies of ANYthing from that publisher, for any price higher than one that would allow Wal-Mart to make a profit on that half-price game.

[...] if itunes can get away with it, I fail to see why Steam could not.
The music industry works very differently from the games industry. Stop comparing apples to oranges.

inseeisyou

11-18-2011, 05:35 PM

Came across this over at the Skyrim forums and found it somewhat funny and relevant in light of the Russian pricing example we were discussing earlier in the thread...

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=638

A little snippet..

"Obviously it's because Steam FORCES publishers to sell games at reduced prices and in rubles for Russia now. Still, it's VERY regrettable that this happened. Bethesda, you're losing customers like that. And a lot of them."

QuantumTarantino

11-19-2011, 01:58 AM

I think you misunderstood... or maybe I misunderstood you. The point was that EBGames (in USA) doesn't matter because they don't move enough volume to apply pressure on publishers. Walmart/Target/Best Buy/etc move games in much larger volumes and they are capable of pressuring publishers to

Put another way: Most publishers wouldn't care if EBGames said "We won't stock any of your future games". However, they would very likely give in to any reasonable demand if Walmart said the same thing. Walmart represents a significant source of revenue. EBGames doesn't. EBGames benefits from this because the publisher isn't going to (can't) treat different retail stores differently.

No, he's saying that EBGames has no power to force the actions of the publishers, as explained above. Walmart et al, do. And publishers still give in to demands from physical stores because they still represent a sizable revenue stream. As most game publishers are corporations of some sort, the decision to just give up a revenue stream is something that is unlikely to be popular with the board/investors. Walmart et al still put pressure on publishers to not be undercut because game sales are a noticeable revenue stream for them, too, and their investors would be just as annoyed at the loss.

How do you break the deadlock? Consumers. Slowly but surely, consumers are switching to digital distribution. This has already drastically eroded the power held by retail stores, and it will continue until the revenue provided by the stores won't be enough to justify their special treatment in a market driven by digital distribution.

To expand on slowtarget's re-iteration here.

EB can threaten to kill their OWN business, by not carrying Activisions latest game.

Walmart can kill Activision, by not only threatening to lock out all of activisions gaming products, but all NON GAMING products of them, and their partners, subsidiaries, etc.

That is the kind of leverage that needs to be dealt with in retail.