[Sugestion] - Team Win (issue in team back stabbing) - seriously pissed off

[Ken Poirier]

So I've noticed a lot of in team back stabbing going on. I decided to ask people why this is happening, and I got answer. No one cares if the team (civ) wins because it doesn't matter which team has the most fame points or has won the most eras because the only thing that matters is which player comes in #1 and which team wins the final (late galactic) era.

So who cares what happens to any of your team mates? why bother to help anyone if it doesn't help you? Hell, while were at it, why not personally sabotage the team so you can get more fame points.

:mad: This is making the game really not fun for me. If there is not a fix for this soon, I am DONE with this game. :mad: :mad:

Seriously, This is really pissing me off. After I finish this game I am logging out for a week so you guys can work on it.

[stream_mm]

There should really be more rewards to a whole civ, and not just the king of the civ in many cases.

[mr.marco]

I'd like to see a system that incorporates both individual winners and team winners.

[Stuart Ball]

Developers cannot fix players.....Only players can fix players.

[Ken Poirier]

Guess what, the players are not going to fix themselves. If there is no incentive to work as a team, why should they?

Possible incentive:
Team with most fame gets bonus fame at the end of the game and gets final victory display.
Team with most era wins get extra fame at the end of the game.
Team who builds most wonders get extra fame.
Shared combat medals.
More end game stats, like that other popular game. what is it called again? Oh yeah, it's called "Sid Meier's Civilization"!

[mr.marco]

How about team winners get a certain amount of gems (or better, CivBucks) proportional to their contributions to the team.

[grinfish]

There should be some reward for a team victory, but it has to be awarded fairly. So, for example, it could be weighted by how long you've been a member of that nation (to stop people joining in the last 2 eras to benefit).

On the individual back-stabbing issue, what kind of things are they doing to screw each other over? Research gives award to the player who contributes the most to a tech's development, which seems to work. In battles, I can see the possibility that the Defence Minister could force team-mates troops out of a battle to substitute his own for a victory (example the barbarian bonus), so that could be countered similarly by making the award shared between all units in the battle and their time spent on the field.

Any others?

[Ken Poirier]

#1 Hording great people - Refusing to build wonders because it is not an advantage to them, but buying up Great people (driving up cost/price) so no one else can afford to build wonder either.

#2 Refusing to participate in science, because they wont get a medal. Their science is nearly equal, but less then other player.

#3 Era win sabotage - Wont participate in battle, pull troops from battle, wont vote, and wont contribute to science or wonder, that would lead to an era victory because they are not king/royalty. in other words wont get enough fame points or other player who is king has too many. so no point in helping the other guy win the game.

[bronzeager]

I can see how sabotaging your team could be an issue...but this is sabotaging yourself as well, because if your team isn't in the lead, you aren't getting fame points for era wins. So there's a balancing act between what's good for yourself and good for your team that's required to get the most fame. I don't really see an issue with the system at all, though I do agree minor exploits are possible.

But it WOULD be nice if there were more rewards for cooperative team play. If you're not super-specialized in any one area, it's very hard to accumulate medals and climb to the top of your team.

[stream_mm]

I would like to see other people in the Civ get more rewards - not just the king.

For wonder buildinging - I think everyone who puts at least 1 person in should be rewarded somehow - maybe 1 random person to get a little bigger reward....

For battles - everyone who puts in at least 15-20% of the troops should get a reward - with the person who put in the most getting the MVP and more reward.

Same with science - if someone puts in at least 15-20% of the research - they should get a reward... with the person who done the most more of a reward.

When an era victory is done, everyone in Civ should get a reward - the king should get A LITTLE more, but not A LOT more.

OVERALL - if you help with anything, you should get a reward. If you help with anything the most out of everyone in the civ, you should get a LITTLE better reward (not a great amount more)......... If this was the case, you will probable find more people helping the civ as a whole.... because even helping a little (well at least 15-20%) will get you something. (At least 15-20% so someone doesn't go put in 1 troop in battle and expect a reward for it.)

I would also LOVE to see "stats" in the thrown room like:

Number of games played: 10
Highest ending result: 3rd place
Average ending result: 14th place
Times in winning Civ: 4 (In winning Civ for at least a certain amount of time - not jumping in at last minute)

[bronzeager]

@stream: all of your suggestions are GREAT. The game is playable as is, but with improvements like those, I think I would enjoy it about 300% more.

[Aruan Drako]

Though I'm inclined to agree with the proposal for a team win score, it's sort of ridiculous that everyone comes here to the forum saying "IF THAT DOESN'T CHANGE, I WILL QUIT THE GAME".

Seriously, spoiled kids aged over 12 are not nice or sweet. We should understand that the (civ) world doesn't revolves around our belly buttons. Rationalizing our propose is way better than threatening.

[grinfish]

Stream certainly seems to have this nettle well and truly grasped :)

As regards internal sabotage, if the team ain't working, they're not really a team. The best action you can take in those circumstances is to get a new team. Send messages to the people who ARE team players, ask them to join you in forming a new civ. Leave the vultures to fight each other. The team that plays together, stays together.

[MattijsV]

I haven't read all posts, because I want this out very quickly:

FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME: This game cannot be won by stabbing the back. If your team doesn't win, you won't win personally. This is a fact. The game is won by era wins, and era wins you get by working together... Backstabbers basically have no clue what this game is about.

Well, yeah, right, you're in a game with ALL new people, and by 'luck' you are in the most active civ, and nobody knows what they are doing. Okay, then you MIGHT win a game by backstabbing. One of those 1 to 2 weeks games I guess...

I wish ALL those backstabbers the LUCK to be in a game with Team Crushinator or Team Civilized Rulers... Then they might finally understand what this game is about.

So Ken: don't despair, keep with us a bit, try finding some players that understand the efficiency of teamplay and ignore the backstabbers. Get out of a civ full of backstabbers, start your own with some good people and woop their ass by team-efficiency! Think about how to teamplay, it's not that difficult!

[MattijsV]

okay, just a follow up now I have read the following up posts... (sorry, just needed to get this out asap :-)).

There's something to say for certain ideas as giving everybody that contributed to wonder or science something... But nevertheless, there's already quite a bit of incentive. And that is, I will repeat myself, that you will not win the game if your team doesn't win. In a real game that is, with some real active people. Especially in the science department teamplay is soooooo important. You can halve your time of play easily by working together in science department, thus winning from other civs.

Last game we won in 3 days. Yes, 3 days, that's how good teamplay goes.

[Sidlicious]

I agree that rewards should be split more evenly. I've donated about 10 great people to wonders in the past few days, and I have yet to be the lucky one that gets a bonus for building the wonder.

[Ken Poirier]

@Aruan Drako: I'd first like to point out I wasn't threatening anyone. I don't think that 2k would feel threatened by me not playing the game. I was simply saying that the current setup reduces the fun level to a point where I am no longer interested in participating. I also said it in mostly standard capitalization.

@grinfish: I have worked with many people who are team players, but usually after one game they have figured out how the system works and are no longer interested in the team benefit. Right now I am in a team that was very cooperative, but now that they realize that the only real score is their own personal score it is all down the crapper.

@MattijsV: I have found that it is only the new players who work as a team and anyone who has played 3-4 games is in back-stab mode and after 1/2 a game to 2 games has no interest in helping other people.

You said, "This game cannot be won by stabbing the back." I assure it can and is. In fact who ever is ranked #1 is pretty much top @$$-H*.

You also said, "Get out of a civ full of backstabbers" I have tried this. Exit the civ, Wait twelve hours, next civ, same thing, exit again, wait 24 hours, Now I'm so far in the hole there is no point in playing the game anymore. Wait 3-4 day for game to end and try again. How much fun does that sound like?

So basically, the only way to enjoy the game is to convince 12 of my friends to play Civ on facebook? Sorry, most of my friends are not gamers. Out of my power, even if I had the energy to do that. I've tried making friends with people in game, but like I said, as soon as they figure it out, it's back stab time, and yes, they are the one's winning the game.

[bronzeager]

@Ken: I'm not sure how you can claim that all #1 players are backstabbers. In the games that I've played, player #1 is always the King of the civ that has dominated era after era. He usually keeps his place by having high food or science output and constantly winning medals in those areas.

I'm sure everyone's experience of the game is different, and maybe I'm lucky to have not encountered as many backstabbers. But it seems to me that backstabbing is only useful for short-term gain, and is no substitute for endgame-focused, steady progression, which is what ultimately gets the win both for team and top player.

[Aruan Drako]

@Aruan Drako: I'd first like to point out I wasn't threatening anyone. I don't think that 2k would feel threatened by me not playing the game. I was simply saying that the current setup reduces the fun level to a point where I am no longer interested in participating. I also said it in mostly standard capitalization.

In that case I withdraw what I said as in pointing to you but keep it as pointed agains those who do that. :)

[Aktivia]

I have noticed that many players are selfish, so i would like it to be more team play and not so much single play. I like it to be a social game, but at this point it isnt really. But ive also met some great people and players :)

[Ken Poirier]

The way it is setup now it only take one bad apple to ruin the whole bunch. We've got a guy in the group right now who has 13 prophets! He can't spare 1 to build anything. We can get any because they're $35,000 gold, we've used every one we had, our nation is starving to death and we can't build a single wonder that needs a prophet.

There has to be away to vote people out. Mediocrity does no good because he logs on. It's like the chasm you got to jump in tomb raider. except for in this case, you are relying on some one else to push the jump button. :mad:

[MattijsV]

Look, Ken, pity you've had bad experiences. I have met people that think the same as me, quite a few of them. I play regularly with the same group of people, and it's good fun. And nobody cares who takes the number 1 spot. It's a joke amongst us to go famewhoring. Oh, true, in the end, as a joke, we try to be king sometimes by some very funny play, but that's after the whole game being won already, and personal ranks more or less clear already.

Right now I'm in a game that I was going to go solo. But a guy joined and he was nice. Another guy joined and he seems to be nice as well. So great, I'll teach them how group-playing works, they listen, and they profit from it. Because our 3-people civ will win the game, although there's some other quite active civs out there (and even one that is trying a vazal-state exploit).

In that game by the way I have about 50 Great People, and don't mind doing all wonders and mini-wonders by myself... If the other guys want to join in for a GP, that's okay, but I don't care. I'm just having some fun, and it's cool to take some new people with me that are willing to teamplay the game with me.

In the end I probably WILL win the game personally, but if it shows that Kres or Kevin won, then that's very cool and I would be proud :-)!

All players in the group I play with regularly do these things. They just don't care about personal gain, as long as it was a fun experience and as long as the civ they are in wins overall.

Just so you know that there are quite a few good people out there that really don't care about personal gain and would never backstab.

EDIT: Oh, and if you wonder: I don't use Civbucks, just know this game quite well

[Glinda]

I think even in a team there are people who pay attention to their personal fame and can be constantly suggesting era victory strategies that get THEM the most points. I won't play a second game with people like that.

[Ken Poirier]

@Glinda, but do you really have a choice? There is no way to block them. If they join your civ, should you have to quit and be penalized?

[Shadoe_Wrayth]

I think even in a team there are people who pay attention to their personal fame and can be constantly suggesting era victory strategies that get THEM the most points. I won't play a second game with people like that.

I don't know what to say in reply to this... But let me piece together what I think you are saying: If a person has spent their entire game working on military and building up units and tech for military (and when not focusing on those techs is throwing in their science to help others on tech), that when they want to attack a nation that has enough people for the era victory... that they are being selfish? I mean, it is obvious they will most likely become king/queen when the battle is done, and they will get the most points... so by your definition, they are a bad player with which you do not wish to play?

Same goes for culture, I hear people complaining that they want people to donate a GP to finish this or that... are they selfish as well? I personally consider it a mistake (in the current game format) to do so... but are they selfish? They have been working on culture hardcore, why should they not reap the benefits of that focus?

As an aside, the reason I (and many others I assume) 'hoard' my GP's, is that culture is broken severely. Current mechanics say that if you focus on culture or gold, and work your butt off, you can finally get a GP (this is VERY true later in game once you pass the 11,200 culture point)... Now, you slot your GP into a wonder, YAY!!! Your nation gets +25% growth!!! Then within a few moments, an opposing nation builds the exact same wonder... You just lost a days work and/or 12-20K gold!!! For nothing!!! WHOOO!!! /sarcasm off... are you starting to see the futility of it? It quickly progresses to having no chance of building wonders, and nothing to show for it. The other option, is to continue to gain those GP's, and permanently enjoy a +5% on something for the rest of the game. I know my friend has 17 or 18 great scientists. It's really nice when you have +120% science and 10 science houses working with an average of 50 each... Even in Dark Ages he was getting 25-30 per house, my TEAM burned through to a SCIENCE victory in the Dark Ages quite quickly, all through prudent usage of GP's instead of wasting them away on wonders.

This is especially true when you consider that battle can easily gain a nation wonders. This should probably change so that the victor of a battle gets %'s of each commodity spread among the people who had a piece of the battle based on their % of contribution. Instead of taking wonders or techs, just say that the losing side had 50K food saved up, the invading nation had 10 players, defending nation had 10... so go with base % of 15% (modifiable up or down based on number of players in each nation), only 3 of the 10 had units in the fight, 1 for 50%, 1 for 35%, and 1 for 15%. 7500 food gets split between them: 3750, 2625, 1125...

The game is supposed to be about balancing out your resource gathering so no one person REALLY focuses hard on any one thing. So battle like that would encourage players to have some military standing around just in case of attack (so they don't lose any resources), as well as contributing to an attack (so they can get a piece of the pie)... Same should be for science, wonders, and gold era vic's, fame proportional to contribution. As it stands though, why would anyone sacrifice their GP's when you can win wonders through battle and spend NO GP's?

[The Lulu]

As far as I can see, this game should be rechristened, ConWorld...

[trst]

The way it is setup now it only take one bad apple to ruin the whole bunch. We've got a guy in the group right now who has 13 prophets! He can't spare 1 to build anything. We can get any because they're $35,000 gold, we've used every one we had, our nation is starving to death and we can't build a single wonder that needs a prophet.

If Prophet is the most expensive Great Person then that is the type of Great Person you will make if you develop culture. Advancing your culture level will always give you the GP with the highest price in the market.

[trst]

As it stands though, why would anyone sacrifice their GP's when you can win wonders through battle and spend NO GP's?

I can't agree with your post enough. On occasion it makes sense to use GP for a wonder, but only as part of a tactical move. I feel like I am constantly shaken down for GP by people whose sole interest in the game is to put little GP cards into the little wonder slots. Earlier today I was harangued by someone for not helping to complete a wonder that we would gain anyway as soon as the battle which had already started was won. It's sort of crazy how people can be so unaware of game mechanics but feel so right in their convictions that so-and-so is letting down the team. Like an internet full of people ranting about welfare queens.

[Shadoe_Wrayth]

There is only ONE wonder I consider it important to build... no, almost a REQUIREMENT to build at points in the game. The Great Wall. The best thing any team can ever do, is to have all but 1 GP slotted for the great wall at ALL times. That way, if you are planning an attack, you get it almost all voted in, slot the last guy, and pass the vote. Otherwise, it is a complete waste to use GP's on wonders.

Btw, I think Meritocracy should be automatic, not a civic. If you cannot trouble yourself to log in for 2 minutes every 48 hours, why should I be raising YOUR fame? Every member of a civ gets at least a bit of fame when they win an era. Last game I played, there were points where we had someone in top 10 that had not played in 3 days! All because he rode the tails of greater players.

As for the "Prophet Needed but they cost 35K gold" thing... well, yeah? Have you sat down and analyzed the sheer insanity of trying to do culture late game? The only thing more insane is battle. Science curves up a little, but is pretty easy overall. Gold is same way.

Culture: the first era vic requires 3 wonders. At that time, 3 wonders is around 7 GP's. Roughly 28K culture, or 25K gold... pretty easy, especially considering everyone starts with 2-5 GP's it seems... In our game, Late Industrial Age, requirement is 9 Wonders. Each wonder requires 6-8 GP's. Avg of 63 GP's needed. Market price is Avg of 12K gold for a GP, so 756K gold. Avg culture needed to just get one (and hope the right ones) is 12,800 or more: so about the same as gold. Simply finishing one wonder is work of awesome teamwork in a game where teamwork is VERY hard to come by, or an EXTREME amount of work on a few people. And what is worse? When you finish it, within a few hours, one of the other 5-8 nations most likely will have been working on the same one, and now you have to start ALL OVER. If that isn't insanity, then please define it for me?

Yes, you need a prophet, yes, he has 13 of them... Instead of playing the "insane game of culture" he chose to save his prophets for either late game investment in gold win, or is just enjoying the +65% to his food resources for the ENTIRE game! Knowing how the game works, which one of these is more rational? Wasting the prophets for no gain whatsoever, or saving them up and using them to further make yourself (and by extension, your team) more powerful?

[Ondaderthad]

I'd like to say that in the game I am currently playing the leading Civ has only 2 players and Closed Borders. Those two must know what they are doing. They have the strongest military and the most research so far.
That's what I call team work.

[grinfish]

I'd like to say that in the game I am currently playing the leading Civ has only 2 players and Closed Borders. Those two must know what they are doing. They have the strongest military and the most research so far.
That's what I call team work.

One thing they will surely avoid by that strategy, is having a new guy walk in, drop a GP in to finish a wonder, get the Minister's job, then fail to supply more GPs as the game goes on, crippling your cultural development.

I've been sitting on a small stack of great people for days, watching 8 wonders slowly dwindle as other nations snatch them, and being forced to go the Military route to take them back.

All I can hope is that the guy doesn't beat down a barbarian attack, then we'll be REALLY screwed.

[Shadoe_Wrayth]

One thing they will surely avoid by that strategy, is having a new guy walk in, drop a GP in to finish a wonder, get the Minister's job, then fail to supply more GPs as the game goes on, crippling your cultural development.

I've been sitting on a small stack of great people for days, watching 8 wonders slowly dwindle as other nations snatch them, and being forced to go the Military route to take them back.

All I can hope is that the guy doesn't beat down a barbarian attack, then we'll be REALLY screwed.

Or build a ginormous factory first, get the MoI position, then quit the game... All those harvests gone...

[Ken Poirier]

I understand now. I should horde great people, only contribute to military if I am king, and only work on science if it will give me a medal (or era victory when I am King).

And That is good teamwork and my team should be thankful that I am doing it because they can eat the scraps I throw down to them.

I got it now, I guess I just didn't understand what TEAMWORK was. :eek:

[churd]

I want to throw in my comment as a voice of reason here. There are people playing who do understand that it's not in your best interest to compete with your own team.

I've got a nice group, entirely of PUGs (pick up gamers), who have no problem rotating the crown. I've seen someone win the science ministry, then immediately move into another technology that's near finishing (<25% away), causing them to lose the ministry but gain the technology. I've personally passed on several "most harvested" contests in order to have other members win and stay involved. We've currently got ranks 1,2,3,6,8,9,10,12,13,14,15. We're currently beating the nation which has a guy with 800 production / harvest. We're beating them even though their nation defended the 3rd place nation for the sole reason of inhibiting our progress (by moving wonders out of our control).

So there are good people out there. It is possible to beat warmongers, or science-mongers. They tend to attract a higher amount of coat-tail riders who want to get easy fame off of someone else's era victories. In CivWorld as in like, just move around until you find a group you like.

[Sid Yanki]

Here are a few ideas on giving additional points for those who don't "win".

At game end give extra fame points:
- +X fame for each player population (so if u got 20 pop, 20 fame points) so fame points for every single player at game end
- for total ammount of gold reserve (sorta like an RPG leveling ladder hence for every 1K,5K,10K,25K... +1 fame point each level)
- each Great Person not used in a wonder (1 fame point for every 1, 5 or 10 GP)
- +X fame to Player with most game puzzle points earned (so if I earned a total of 142,321 gold in the caravan game... +X fame)
- Final Most productive worker/farmer/artist...
- +X fame to Player with most won auctions, contests, and or
- +X fame to Player with biggest army
- +X Fame for player with most total research or science points attained
- +X Fame for player with most total profit made from commodity trading...
- +X Fame for player with most total units killed and/or total units killed by (measured in production point value per unit)
- +X fame for player with most votes made during game (dont forget to take into account that votes can be switched)

[neophilus]

The point of the game is to get team win's - Fame is just a quantifier to rank people. Just because you're not #1 doesn't mean you're not winning the game. If your team has won the last 4-5 era victories you are winning the game! An individual cannot get a victory only a team can.

If someone chooses to just focus on Fame, let them, that is their enjoyment of the game. They are no better or worse than the person who is running merchants and artists and logs on once every two days. If you want to collect the most Fame in the game then you have to do the same thing the top ranked players are doing - join the winning Civ, horde your GPs, win contests to keep your rank up, etc. If you just want your TEAM to win, then stuff you do isn't necessarily going to get rewarded other than you knowing you contributed. Even if your'e not the science MVP you wouldn't have gotten that tech victory without your contribution. Even if you don't get cultural minster post they still needed your GP in the wonder slot to finish it.