Full heal promotion is overpowered

[Rinnero]

Havent played MP a lot, but actually this problem always existed.

Too strong, game-breaking in some cases.

Please note that this problem exists in Multiplayer. In Singleplayer it doesnt really matter.

There are a lot of problems with this "promotion".

The least important: realism.
I cannot understand what could this represent? An almost dead unit returns its full manpower. Strange... Any ideas? Explain please. :)

Gameplay problems are much worse. In the best case instant heal is occasional. Only if you dont have any chance to save this unit.

BUT, this actually is used to gain advantage in war and to kill enemy units. That means that instead of killing enemy unit, you lose yours. That practically decides the outcome of battle, considering how valuable are now units (there are not many of them). One such full heal and you are at disadvantage. Two such instant heals can lead to complete wipe of your army. (or half of it)

+20% of CS is not that much compared to full heal. Also, this +20% become even less valuable as you get other bonuses. (explanation: fortified unit in hills with GG has +95% of CS. The same unit with +20% CS at rough terrain is not 20% stronger. Actually its 215/195 = 11% stronger. A unit with +65% CS (3 promotions) is 260/195 = 33% stronger. Understand that?) To have 33% stronger unit or a unit that can be healed 3 times. Whats better?

Even 5 HP heal is waaaaay better than such upgrade. In MP its hard to have units more than 4th level, if both players are strong. Its better to spam units without upgrades and insta heal them.

With patch it became impossible to accumulate promotions and than heal when you need, BUT that only lowered the chance of effective instant heal from 100% to 50%. (or even more). "Effective instant heal" means that your unit has 5 or lower HP, has enemy units (preferably cities) nearby, and obviously had just received promotion.

You can increase how often such situation occurs by having 1.5 exp gain rate, having melee army that moves rough terrain and fortifies whenever possible, having GG around. Your units will not die with 2 attacks. Things become worse if enemy has before artillery ranged units. Its hard to concentrate fire, and archers are unlikely to kill enemy with 1-2HP attacks. They just give enemy exp, allowing to plan attack so that after attack the unit got instant heal and could attack again. That even further encourage use of melee and makes ranged harmful to an extent.

Also, this instant heal is very strong but UNPREDICTABLE. You cannot check how much exp an enemy has, and thus cannot make right decision whether to attack or not. That is a very huge factor of luck. Something that should be decreaced to minimum in such tactical battles. (almost wargame). Its ok to have -/+1 damage by units, but sudden extra unit (+9HP) on the battlefield is too much.


Shortly:
- not realistic
- better than the usual promotion
- too strong
- can be used pretty often
- unpredictable by opponent
- encourages use of melees

Dont tell me you think thats not reasonable.

The only argument that can justify existance of instant heal is that everyone can use this... But I dont think many of us want warfare to turn into careful calculating of exp.



Here are some ideas how to change it:

- just remove it

- make instant heal give only 4 HP

- forbid taking promotions if enemy units are nearby and if unit shot or received damage during the last 3 turns.

- make the usual promotions stronger (+30/35/35% CS instead +20/20/25% CS)

- at a realistic standpoint maybe that represents sudden burst of morale and thus CS?
then remove instant heal, and add "hold position at any costs" promotion that raises CS by 100% for 3 turns. And add " take position at any costs" promotion that raises damage dealt and received by 60% for 3 turns (units with the same CS are usually damaged by 5 both, this promotion will make outcome 8 HP damage both)

[cfnz]

I don't play multiplayer but I've modded it out of the game and I'm much happier as a result.

[Pouakai]

What I would like to see is the InstaHeal promotion to stay, but you can't attack in the same turn

[SlickSlicer]

Full Heal is pretty OP. I'm not going to deny. If applied at the right time, it really can reverse a situation.

I'm not really sure which of these is the right solution though.

[Floating Pants]

I don't want it taken away, that's for sure. It really defines the unpredictability of war in Civ5, which, honestly, is far from realistic to begin with. On the terms of the combat on Civ5, I barely view it on a realistic basis at all. The exception of this, however is units being era-appropriate and at least somehow corresponding to their practical use.

You see, one of your arguments was as this:

I cannot understand what could this represent? An almost dead unit returns its full manpower. Strange... Any ideas? Explain please.
The idea is that combat on Civ5 is unrealistic, and fun as hell. I can shoot arrows over the 12-mile Straight of Gibraltar on a huge sized earth map. I can launch enormous stones onto tiny buildings with my catapult. My Great General looks over and improves the effectiveness of all my units in the vicinity of some 500 miles of him. Instant heal is no exception to this, so I see it very well fitting.

Alright, enough of that. Now, some people see it as OP. I don't, really. Sure, it's a nuisance, but you've gotta expect it when you go in to battle, leaving your troop weak on an open field. You can use it, too, so it's not overpowered, it's the same for everybody, huh?

But then, I might add, vigorous combat can reveal cases where instant heal is the best choice the majority of the time. Risking the unit for a 'real' promotion can kill it, and it's happened to me many times before. To alleviate this, all that needs to be done is a simple boost of health from a standard promotion, like 1 or 2 HP, just enough to keep it alive. In this case, you won't be using promotions for repetitive attacks, you'll be using it to retreat to safety. Keep instant heal on top of that.

One more thing, I think there should be an option in the pre-game screen to disable it. Simply for player preferences.

[Varus2319]

Well, I've had it used against me and I've used it plenty of times myself. I agree that it's pretty ridiculous. It has destroyed some situations that were pretty winnable for me, but it has also reversed some situations that were most certainly doomed.

So I'm not sure what to think. It's a wash, really. I guess the only thing it is meant to represent is that occasional miraculous military victory against all odds that comes about when soldiers are out of options and fighting for their lives.

I dunno. I wouldn't cry to see it gone. Not really sure why it was ever there.

[Artifex]

Using this promotion should use up any remaining moves the unit has.

Pretty simple.

[SlickSlicer]

Using this promotion should use up any remaining moves the unit has.

Pretty simple.

That would definitely be an improvement.

[King_Course]

In singleplayer, I just don´t like it. I don´t use it, and have it used against me as the AI pulls out a complete fresh new unit when it is supposed to be dead. It really feels like pulling an Ace out from your sleeve.

It is supposed to be reinforcements I guess, just doesn't make sense that the frontline unit just heals. Maybe if it reinforced +4 hitpoints as proposed above, or if it took a whole turn of inactivity and forced the unit into fortifying for that turn. I like both of these ideas. Theres no sense in it now, I had personally come to understand it as something the AI needed, but it always just frustrates.

[sectoid]

I guess the only thing it is meant to represent is that occasional miraculous military victory against all odds that comes about when soldiers are out of options and fighting for their lives.

Voted for removal before reading this. When you put it that way, it doesnt sound too bad. Still, if its considered miraculous victory as such, would be better if it happened during actual combat. Maybe losing units could use their xp's to survive and retreat, but that would be too complicated to implement.

I dont heal my units via promotion, its a waste of xp-points IMO.

[Rinnero]

Had just steamrolled another player in a duel. He claimed to be a "pro" and played quite well, but he couldnt do anything to my 5 insta heals. All of them were 4-8 HP. Due to ping didnt heal one 1-HP unit, but that didnt matter already.

I was easily able to use all instant heals either before or after significant attack (all out attack at city or ganging at enemy swordsman). This also came along with click fest and my units moving first. Not fair as well, though thats another thread. (actually I have an idea how to counter click fest and double turn, but it is a bit complicated solution that has a lot of details)

4 HP is still strong. I think that 4HP instant heal and loss of move points at this turn will be ok. Or remove full heal at all. Anything below this is OP.

[Joe-Z]

I guess the only thing it is meant to represent is that occasional miraculous military victory against all odds that comes about when soldiers are out of options and fighting for their lives.

Instead of full heal, I'd like to see a promotion that gives the unit the ability to fight as if it was fully healed but not actually gaining any HP. This would be a one-time bonus, applied only for the next combat only. It would enable the kind of last stand you are describing.. the promotion could be called "Kamikaze" or something like that. :)

The Japanese civilization already has this as a permanent promotion for all units.

[Furball]

My main gripe with the promotion is something that no one ever seems to mention which it the element of luck surrounding it. Having this option pop up at just the right time in the right situation can change the outcome of a battle and it's not really conducive of an interesting game or option within a game to have such a huge impact based on pure luck.

[SamBC]

Either reduce to 4-5 HP, or make it use up remaining moves. Doing both makes it really pointless, so it may as well have been removed.

[BlastDuke]

I don't like the "instant heal" concept at all. The current implementation is completely unfair in multiplayer mode.
Possibilites to keep it would be:
a) Remove remaining move points and attack option this turn after "instant healing"
b) Dont allow "instant healing" in neutral/enemy territory
c) Dont allow "instant healing" if enemy units/cities in range of X squares (e.g. 3 squares)
d) Unit was not in combat the last X turns (e.g. 3 turns)
But as I said above, I would be glad if it would be removed at all.

[SamBC]

d) Unit was not in combat the last X turns (e.g. 3 turns)
That only applies if promotion saving is on, surely?

[the man of doom]

i like the insta heal promotion
tho i normally dont take it since i like producing my units from cities with an armory
and other promotion are better in the long run


its only op when u can save promotions
then when u produce ur units from cities with armories they have 2 insta heal promotions for when ever they get low on health

[Mega-Dolphin]

Perhaps a mix of a nerf to a 5-hp heal and the option being unusable when a unit is within the zone of control of an enemy unit could work. Then only ranged units in the back of your battle lines could effectively use the promotion without moving first. Then if needed make the promotion use up the unit's turn.

[Sunrunner]

its only op when u can save promotions

I agree with the above. It is only really over powered when you can save them for later. I always try to avoid using the heal because that is a lost promotion and a waste of xp. It is better to just fortify for a few turns and heal up while keeping a better promotion.

[torqanvil]

I find the instant healing promotion annoying even in single player. Reducing it to 4-5 HP or having it use up all of the units moves for the turn seem appropriate fixes to me.

In the meantime I'm going to look for the mod mentioned above that removes it...

[Luciela]

Instant heal as it currently is doesn't really make sense. While I like the mechanic it breaks the gameplay on many different levels. The idea of allowing it to use up your current turn would be a significant improvement; i'm all for that. I was also thinking: what about the mechanic being limited to use only in your territory? This can give defending armies an advantage, and it would make a little more sense from a realism aspect. Or simply removing it and allowing all other promotions to heal 2 HP?

EDIT: I'm all for removing it period as well.

[istry555]

The simple fact that Insta-Heal forced them to patch that you had to use your promotions right away instead of saving them should have been a dead give away that the mechanic is broken.

[Jacsó Benjámin]

What if one feels it is fine the way it is, and is not broken? I see no option for this...

The thing is, by using insta-heal, you lose out on a long term boost to your unit which often is far more worth it in the long run. I only use it when it would otherwise die, or it is in a situation where it could have a significant impact on the tide of the war. If this ability was nerfed, hardly would it ever be worth using. I like it the way it is...

[Floating Pants]

What if one feels it is fine the way it is, and is not broken? I see no option for this...

Haha, I thought that when I first voted. But, I think he wants choice #2 to be that (it's worded kind of weird), but it turns out that the real statistic for this is poll choice #1 + #2, which means 55% don't want it changed. Less than 1/5 want it removed.

[Artifex]

You use it to save the life of a unit. Because upgrades on a dead guy are not very useful. In that intended role it functions well.

The problem comes when healing that unit singularly turns the tide of a battle. In a game of tactical brinksmanship, the sudden appearance of a full health unit can be transformative.

The question at hand is this. "How can the healing serve it's intended function without being awkwardly game changing." And I think the answer is rather simple. Leave the full heal as is, but ensure that using it ends the unit's turn.

Simply give the opponent a chance to react to the unit's altered status, presto.
That way it has significant use on the defensive, and retains it's ability to "save" an otherwise dead unit, but it cannot be ace-in-the-hole that takes an otherwise secure city, or dooms an entire opposing army.

Wouldn't this make everyone happy?

[Rinnero]

Haha, I thought that when I first voted. But, I think he wants choice #2 to be that (it's worded kind of weird), but it turns out that the real statistic for this is poll choice #1 + #2, which means 55% don't want it changed. Less than 1/5 want it removed.

Do not read statistics as you want. #1 means people do not care much (29%), #2 means people do not want to change it at all (27%), all other mean that people think it should be nerfed to some extent (44%).



What I would like to see is the InstaHeal promotion to stay, but you can't attack in the same turn

That way it has significant use on the defensive, and retains it's ability to "save" an otherwise dead unit, but it cannot be ace-in-the-hole that takes an otherwise secure city, or dooms an entire opposing army.

I see that a lot of people think that is a viable way to nerf this promotion. It will actually nerf it, but just a bit. You will be able to react and asses situation (that you are deep in s$#t), but the question is will it help you? The situation "you attack and almost kill unit, but it heals and kills yours instead" remains almost the same, but just delayed by 1 turn. (because the best place to fight enemy is near enemy city. It will prevent enemy from retreating, or otherwise losing this city. Also city will provide extra exp at cost of very low damage.)

To get a unit not immedeately, but after one turn is still faaaaar better than building it for 3-8 turns and dragging to the battlefield.
Agree?


By the way I forgot to include one more option to the poll: remove instant heal, but the usual promotions give 2 HP. Now I think that is the best decision.

And another interesting idea is to allow instant heal promotion on/off in lobby when creating a game. Specially for surprise-lovers :)

[Mega-Dolphin]

I personally advocate the option that the promotion uses up the unit's turn and that it cannot be used while within the zone of control of an enemy unit, so basically melee units cannot use the promotion unless promotion-saving is active, in which case they will have to move prior to getting the heal. Therefore by placing your units along a longer front where they will be next to more enemy units, you can deny the enemy the ability to use insta-heals for his front-line troops.

[Jacsó Benjámin]

You use it to save the life of a unit. Because upgrades on a dead guy are not very useful. In that intended role it functions well.

The problem comes when healing that unit singularly turns the tide of a battle. In a game of tactical brinksmanship, the sudden appearance of a full health unit can be transformative.

The question at hand is this. "How can the healing serve it's intended function without being singularly game changing." And I think the answer is rather simple. Leave the full heal as is, but ensure that using it ends the unit's turn.

That way it has significant use on the defensive, and retains it's ability to "save" an otherwise dead unit, but it cannot be ace-in-the-whole that takes an otherwise secure city, or dooms an entire opposing army.

Wouldn't this make everyone happy?

But saving the life of your unit is better done by giving it some other promotion and drawing it out of the field of combat; hardly is this ever not a possible, or a better option for such purposes. The reason it's there and is tactically viable is because it can at times serve a desicive role, and even this is quite rare—I far more often get some other promotion.

Also, it makes combat far more interesting, and really makes you pay attention to when you should kill off an opposing unit so that it cannot cause big trouble again. It sort of makes the combat a bit more risk-like, or even chess-like, where there is more to a single attack than what the eye can see. It also encorages you to time your attacks so you can in the end pull it off, even when at a cursory glance it would seem hopeless.

What you guys are saying makes me feel like you treat this promotion as a draw of luck; but it can also be another factor to take into account, and I like it.

[lietkynes]

yes it's overpowered, I removed all healing promotions months ago, combat makes more sense now

[Rinnero]

But saving the life of your unit is better done by giving it some other promotion and drawing it out of the field of combat; hardly is this ever not a possible, or a better option for such purposes. The reason it's there and is tactically viable is because it can at times serve a desicive role, and even this is quite rare—I far more often get some other promotion.

Also, it makes combat far more interesting, and really makes you pay attention to when you should kill off an opposing unit so that it cannot cause big trouble again. It sort of makes the combat a bit more risk-like, or even chess-like, where there is more to a single attack than what the eye can see. It also encorages you to time your attacks so you can in the end pull it off, even when at a cursory glance it would seem hopeless.

What you guys are saying makes me feel like you treat this promotion as a draw of luck; but it can also be another factor to take into account, and I like it.

You clearly lack multiplayer experience. When you advancing into enemy territory you do not have time to retreat and heal, if one of your units is damaged. You have to go further to deal as much damage as you can till you have advantage. If the whole army retreats to wait for one damaged unit to heal, enemy will get extra 8 turns to prepare for defence. You lose advantage. If only one unit retreats than you practically lose combat power of this unit in this concrete battle. Whats the point of having one full healed unit with promotion when the whole your army is already damaged to the extent that it cant fight effectively and capture enemy city?

Insta heal is chess-like????????? Have you ever played chess? Can you imagine that when you capture an enemy piece it has 50% chance to capture yours instead???? Proper tactics even increases this chance in Civ V (read my posts). And an enemy cannot foresee whether a unit will get enough exp to get instant heal or not. You just have to kill units with one turn, but even this do not guarantee that it will not heal in between attacks. Ranged units became useless because of lower damage/exp effectiveness. So basically its better NOT to shoot.

[Staropramen]

Strange poll since the only way to say that you like it the way it is involves the word "abuse" (Nothing, it is fair because everyone can abuse this.). A good poll should allow for opinions other than your own.

However, you have a good point and i like the suggested solution of not allowing a healed unit to do anyhing the same turn it heals.

[Sombra]

Using this promotion should use up any remaining moves the unit has.

Pretty simple.

Good idea like it

[Rinnero]

Using this promotion should use up any remaining moves the unit has.

Pretty simple.

Simple, but not effective enough.

Its just as an immediate rush buy of unit right here, on the battlefield, but at cost of exp. That is still TOO STRONG!

Make and option to turn this promotion off, and make other promotions heal 2 HP.

[Sunrunner]

make other promotions heal 2 HP.
I think this is a good solution.

[cjvannette]

I agree with the above. It is only really over powered when you can save them for later. I always try to avoid using the heal because that is a lost promotion and a waste of xp. It is better to just fortify for a few turns and heal up while keeping a better promotion.

Agreed. Frankly, I get pissed off when I have to use insta-heal instead of getting a promotion that will benefit me over the long term. That's one promotion that isn't getting me closer to blitz/logistics.

[Hawk]

Well we don't use instant heal when your unit is no longer in the middle of combat, but instead we always pick a promotion that would be useful. Instant heal is only good when you are still in combat, and are risking loosing your unit if you choose another promotion. Personally I value all my units and hate seeing them die, especially one that has already been promoted a few times, and so I am glad I have the ability to save my units sometimes this way!

By the way, out of all the voting options, you don't have one that supports the instant heal promotion...This poll is very one sided!

[Taciturn Scot]

I voted 'Nothing' but I don't agree with the 'abuse' part of the statement. The full auto heal has been an option since unit promotions were introduced in Civ IV vanilla. I hate wasting a promotion auto-healing but sometimes I will because the alternative is that I lose a promoted unit. It's a fair exchange. I don't get any benefit from the experience level, the next one is further away and that seems fair to me.

[Buller]

I voted 'Nothing' but I don't agree with the 'abuse' part of the statement. The full auto heal has been an option since unit promotions were introduced in Civ IV vanilla. I hate wasting a promotion auto-healing but sometimes I will because the alternative is that I lose a promoted unit. It's a fair exchange. I don't get any benefit from the experience level, the next one is further away and that seems fair to me.

Just wondering if "Insta-heal" promotion was taken out of the game in G&K? I haven't bought the expansion yet (times are tough) but I've recently started playing multiplayer and noticed that this is a crazily taken advantage of. Definately overpowered!

[VicRatlhead51]

Just wondering if "Insta-heal" promotion was taken out of the game in G&K? I haven't bought the expansion yet (times are tough) but I've recently started playing multiplayer and noticed that this is a crazily taken advantage of. Definately overpowered!

They reduced it to 50% so it's not so bad anymore.

[zephyrtr]

Can we not necro threads please?

[alcibiades]

Well to be fair, it was revived with a relevant question, so I guess it's no different than creating a new thread to ask, given that there is no questions topic on this forum.

[SamBC]

Can we not necro threads please?
Thread necroing is acceptable as long as it's adding something new to the conversation - it can sometimes be preferable to starting a new thread, as it keeps context.

On the other hand, telling people what they should or shouldn't do in terms of forum rules, when you aren't a moderator, can be seen as backseat moderating, which isn't considered acceptable. I know you (and many others) are just trying to help, and this didn't cross a line, but it seemed appropriate to remind people.