Can DNF live up to DN3D? [Archive]

Blue Lightning

01-21-2011, 08:18 PM

That is of course the 64 dollar question...will this game be as good as the original? That is a hard act to follow, and frankly I'm a bit worried.

I havent seen much except snippets of action, including the new trailer. Dont get me wrong I'm not complaining. Hell, I'm happy we have a release date, that alone is enough to get me by until May 3rd. But what little we have seen is action snips, and much of that is against the big boss. In otherwords no walkthrough. I guess Bioshock spoiled me...I came to love the walkthrough as it gives me a real sense of the gameplay and atmosphere.

I am wondering if the new Duke will have the same humor plus the same interacting enviroments plus the same kind of fun map design...all in one. That's a tall order, and the game has been out of George Broussard's hands for a long time now...long enough for things to change. I guess we will have to wait and see on May 3rd. But with such a blockbuster title and with such huge expectations, I see this as a critical moment for Pitchford. He will either be hero, or zero.

ilblogics

01-21-2011, 08:59 PM

It'll be better then the original except for one thing...the two weapon limit!

Relight

01-21-2011, 10:25 PM

:confused:

What two weapon limit? There's a two weapon limit? Do you mean you can only have two weapons in your inventory at once? :(

If that's the case, it's utterly LAME, and it makes no sense. Duke is about fun, not about realism or anything like that.

Caekzor

01-21-2011, 11:19 PM

Sadly yes. It's because of it being easier to press one button to switch between two weapons... on a controller. Something like that. Blame George. Though Gearbox and Triptych could have changed it. I wish they would have gone for 4 guns at the least. Ideally no limit at all. :p

But the pipebomb and tripmine will have their own buttons for quick use.

The game originally had a "weapon wheel" to carry them all (until sometime in '08 I assume). Categorizing weapons by type like in Half-Life.

I am wondering if the new Duke will have the same humor plus the same interacting enviroments plus the same kind of fun map design...all in one.

Looks like it will have more humor, MORE action and TONS MORE interactivity than Duke Nukem 3D. :)

Relight

01-22-2011, 12:05 AM

Arggghh I hate it when games are "dumbed down" because of consoles. Let's be honest it's the truth. At least that's how I feel about it. So many games have their roots in PC gaming, and then when we see sequels that have to play on both PC and consoles, without knowing all the details, to fans it seems like the devs take the easy route and simplify the game.

I like how BioShock handled it. No dumbing down. Game came from PC heritage of System Shock, and so it had a great gameplay experience as a first person shooter. In order to make the game play well on the consoles too, specifically as far as weapon selection was concerned, they developed a completely alternate control scheme for consoles. That's the way to do it.

In my opinion, the design choice should have been "player carrying as many weapons as they want = fun, and that's what Duke Nukem is all about. This is the heritage of Duke Nukem 3D and PC first person shooters, so let's keep it because it's going to make for awesome gameplay." After that, they look at the controllers and the PC keyboard and they say, "now that we have the design choice that is = fun, what is the best way in both cases to implement this."

Seriously disappointed to hear this.

A big strike against the game in terms of living up to DN3D in my opinion.

Ah well, you can't have everything.

Blue Lightning

01-22-2011, 06:19 AM

I like how BioShock handled it.

Except when you approched a machine or anything else, you got what I call "dummy titles"...like approching the CoV machine, words would pop up saying "Vending Machine" or whatever. That was an immersion crusher, but I dont know if that was done because of the console crowd or not. Hard to imagene a pure PC game having that feature...

In my opinion, the design choice should have been "player carrying as many weapons as they want = fun, and that's what Duke Nukem is all about. This is the heritage of Duke Nukem 3D and PC first person shooters, so let's keep it because it's going to make for awesome gameplay." After that, they look at the controllers and the PC keyboard and they say, "now that we have the design choice that is = fun, what is the best way in both cases to implement this."
True, but to be somewhat realistic a utility belt is in order. That's how Dark Messiah Might and Magic handled it, with a utility belt and I thought it was very well done.

Looks like it will have more humor, MORE action and TONS MORE interactivity than Duke Nukem 3D. :)

Really? I hope we can drink water from broken pipes for health, or use steroids to make long jumps, or shrink ourselves to get through holes, or use explosives to break open walls to get to other places and so on...

What I'm saying is I hope they didnt overlook all that, and just focus on new graphics and fancy explosions.

I-ChooseTheImpossible

01-22-2011, 09:17 PM

Really? I hope we can drink water from broken pipes for health, or use steroids to make long jumps, or shrink ourselves to get through holes, or use explosives to break open walls to get to other places and so on...

What I'm saying is I hope they didnt overlook all that, and just focus on new graphics and fancy explosions.

I hope we can squash our enemies in closing doors, I love doing it in Duke 3D.

http://www.3drealms.com/duke3d/images/walkthrough/e4/e4m10_09_small.jpg

Honestly, isn't that just the most awesome thing you have seen in a video game like, ever?

Fugue

01-23-2011, 01:48 AM

no, just no.

am sure for many DN3D is one of those games that just has a special place in gaming history, Gearbox will no doubt do a great job but DN3D will always be king :p

FtRapture

01-23-2011, 06:48 AM

I think it will hold up great as long as we don't make the classic mistake of comparing it to the original. It has been a long time and if we approach it with fresh eyes we will enjoy it that much more.

My advice is remembering a great game is one thing but that doesn't mean there is no room for a new direction.

Blue Lightning

01-23-2011, 06:40 PM

I hope we can squash our enemies in closing doors, I love doing it in Duke 3D.

http://www.3drealms.com/duke3d/images/walkthrough/e4/e4m10_09_small.jpg

Honestly, isn't that just the most awesome thing you have seen in a video game like, ever?

Yes excatly what I mean! That type of ineracting with the enviroment is a trademark of the original.

zndkwn1+

01-23-2011, 07:31 PM

No, Duke Nukem 3d is the best.

Blue Lightning

01-23-2011, 08:56 PM

I'm afraid you might be right zndkwn1+, I havent seen any enviroment interaction yet (except when Duke is using the bathroom, but hell, we dont even know if he gets any health points for that). I see a bunch of blasting enemies and fancy explosions.

The trademark of enviroment interaction adds an important dimension of stratagy to the game. Many times in DN3D I found myself low on health, but looking for a toilet to break so I could drink the water and stay alive, or out of ammo so I use the doors to kill enimies and hope one of them leave behind ammo, or needing a way to get over a wall to get health and stay alive, so I lure an enemy close and then jump on that enemy so I can get over the wall, and so many more examples. That's a huge part of DN3D.

I'm telling you, if the original trademarks (like this very important "enviroment interaction") arent adheared to, and it just ends up a game that you run through and blast enimies, then it will not live up to the original game.

Shifty Pete

01-23-2011, 10:47 PM

^this, utterly and completely

jst926

01-23-2011, 11:03 PM

I'm afraid you might be right zndkwn1+, I havent seen any enviroment interaction yet (except when Duke is using the bathroom, but hell, we dont even know if he gets any health points for that). I see a bunch of blasting enemies and fancy explosions.

This is a quote from Randy Pitchford:

"But, since abstract concepts aren't very exciting, here's one meaningless spoiler: you can put a bag of popcorn in a microwave and cook it and then eat it. Then, if you hunt around, you might find a rat hiding in the back of a grungy kitchen floor cupboard and you can pick it up. Then, with rat in hand, you might look back towards that microwave and have some wicked thoughts... It's fine. Do what you're thinking. It's funny. And it's a videogame... It's not like you would ever do such a thing in real life."

Relight

01-23-2011, 11:23 PM

Blue Lightning

01-24-2011, 06:03 AM

Sorry, kind of OT, but incidentally, who is the guy presenting DNF in that YouTube stream that shows part of the uncensored demo? Is that Randy Pitchford?

Because he sure wasn't a very good presenter in my opinion.

"Turn it off! (boo!) Now turn it on! (yay!) Turn the sound on! You suck at playing! Haha, I'm funny! Turn it off! (boo!) Now turn it on! (yay!) Let's get some sound! Go to a better part - turn it off! (boo!)" over and over again.

Favorite video demo walkthrough presentation ever, Ken Levine, original BioShock. Straight gameplay, lots of interesting talk, no cuts to look at Ken's face or anything else. Everyone else should learn from this.

This ^ quoted for truth, 100%. Been trying to say this all along. I agree with all of it.

Kens walkthrough from 2006 really was historical. It showed us a new way to present a video game that is awsome. The "developer walkthrough" as it is called, is the best way to present a game. I cannot believe that Gearbox didnt pick up on that. The presentation that Pitchford did was the worst I have ever seen. I hope that Randy Pitchford is reading this so he can learn something from it. Go back, have a look at Ken's walkthrough and let that be the model for all future video game presentations.

ThaCrip

01-25-2011, 06:52 AM

Well obviously Duke Nukem Forever won't be able to live up to the nostalgia in our heads from the original game, it's just not possible. because looking at the past with the original DooM vs DooM3... DooM3 was respectable but it was impossible for it to really stand out against shooters nowadays vs back in it's hey day when it really stood out. (although when the Alpha Demo of DooM3 leaked in Nov 2002 it was a massive leap ahead of all other games visually at the time as that was the last time i was TRULY WOWED by graphics. but by the time that game was officially released in stores which was about mid-2004 the gap in visuals closed quite a bit then as even though DooM3 still was high end at the time it was not leaps and bounds better than other games like it was back in Nov 2002)

it's basically the same concept with Duke Nukem 3D vs Duke Nukem Forever... although since we will have 'free aim' this time it will be a obvious big boost over the original (because without mouse look etc shooters are just quite dated which Duke Nukem 3D is nowadays as it's only still good for Nostalgia's sake) and i think where the new game will generally shine is the character and the humor in the game. because i am expecting a pretty standard shooter but where it will be carried above your typical good shooter is the Duke character and the humor in it.

p.s. Duke wipes the floor with all those other major game series like Call of Duty/Halo etc. because as far as characters go, those two game series can't hold a candle to Duke Nukem.... "hail to the king, baby" ;)

Bravetriforcer

01-27-2011, 02:13 PM

From a nostalgia perspective, no it can't beat Duke Nukem 3-D. But if you took off the rose glasses/accept that this is a new Duke game trying new things, then it probably can. Keep in mind, we have seen very little of the actual game aside from the shacky cam scraps from PAX/the Amsterdam conference. The trailer brought HD and actual sound, but it was still a trailer. It kept cutting away before it could show us some straightforward HD gameplay.

So I'm sure that Duke Nukem Forever has plenty of surprises for us. And to clear up any misconceptions, Duke doesn't get health from the interactive environment anymore. BUT he has his new EGO bar (His new health which translates to critical health when depleted) which comes back on its own. It gets a permanent increase when you play with the environment. This can also lead to interesting "Modest Duke" challenges where you interact with the game as little as possible in order to make the game harder.

Megakyle777

01-29-2011, 03:19 AM

You know, I always wondered about the permanent increase. If there is a massive amount of interactivity as they claim, and we use lots of it to increase health, won't Duke's health bar eventualy mean he probably COULD survive a nuke as well as anything else?

But yea, I have never played DN3D, so I'm looking from it as a new comer. And it LOOKS awesome. WIll have to wait for the demo to see if it so.

(mubles something unhelpfull and rude about that darn First Acess policy...)

Tukai

01-29-2011, 01:53 PM

It'll be better then the original except for one thing...the two weapon limit!

That limit will make it impossible for it to be better then the original. It`s a no buy for me now.

Oppopji

01-29-2011, 05:14 PM

...But yea, I have never played DN3D...

That can easily be rectified; it's only $6 from GOG.com and it's well worth it IMO :) I also recommend downloading EDuke32 (http://www.eduke32.com/) & using the polymost or polymer renderers if you get it

I-ChooseTheImpossible

01-29-2011, 05:35 PM

That limit will make it impossible for it to be better then the original. It`s a no buy for me now.

Your joking, right?

Bravetriforcer

01-29-2011, 05:50 PM

I mean, yeah it's kind of weird, but not buying it because of the 2-Gun system? Sure it's from CoD, but Duke Nukem Forever isn't going to have a 6-hour empty spectacle campaign and Skinner Box multiplayer. It's going to be an 18 hour extrrrravagaznanza with multiplayer that...we haven't seen yet. But chances are it'll be good too.

Blue Lightning

01-29-2011, 07:54 PM

Bravetriforcer

01-29-2011, 08:09 PM

Also there is the ego system problem. Half the fun is backtracking when your almost dead and scrounging for health. With Duke it's even more impartive...because now with the "ego system", looking for pipes or anything that might hold water will be useless.
.

Well now that fun is sort of transitioned in the interactivity. You find things that you can mess around with so that you can think more highly of yourself to take more bullets.

zavage300

01-29-2011, 08:10 PM

if they change the cover than yes it will live up to the expectations (of mine.)

Tukai

01-30-2011, 08:32 AM

Your joking, right?

Not at all.

Tukai

01-30-2011, 08:37 AM

I mean, yeah it's kind of weird, but not buying it because of the 2-Gun system?

I have played through games that have a gun limit, and i absolutly hated it. I am not gonna do that again, and not even The Duke can change that.

DavoX

01-30-2011, 12:14 PM

Well now that fun is sort of transitioned in the interactivity. You find things that you can mess around with so that you can think more highly of yourself to take more bullets.

I keep seeing this but no official confirmation on the matter... WHERE does it say that Duke regenerates health by doing things? I mean... there were mixed comments about this from the pax demo, some people saying doing things doesn't regenerate your health and some people saying that it does...

Bravetriforcer

01-30-2011, 12:57 PM

It doesn't REGENERATE your health. It increases the overall EGO Bar's size. So like Duke plays a pinball machine that's based off him. This inflates his EGO and his EGO bar becomes a bit bigger and now you can take some more hits before going into critical health. If you take too many hits while in critical health (And you can take alot of hits while in critical health) you die. But one magazine Hands-on said the bar only came back half-way after this, with the rest coming back after killing some enemies.

I'll try and find that article to show you.

Blue Lightning

01-30-2011, 02:34 PM

So the ego bar is like armor, I see.

MusicallyInspired

01-30-2011, 10:18 PM

edit: never mind

Blue Lightning

01-31-2011, 08:17 PM

Well I'm not yet sold on the ego bar, but I will wait and see what it offers. Knowing it is much like armor, am I to believe that we will still get health packs and drink water for health?

On the weapons thing, I dont know why Duke couldnt have a utility belt. However, having only two weapons might make the challenge harder, so I'm not totally against it.

Bravetriforcer

01-31-2011, 08:37 PM

If you read my entire post, you'd know it's all regenerative. Messing with the environment, however, will increase Duke's EGO, and by extension, his TOTAL health amount. So his EGO can take more hits before being deflated into critical health mode. I read in one online magazine hands-on that Duke only got half his EGO after going critical, though. The rest came back from defeating enemies and other such things. but I, for the love of all that is Duke, can't find it now.

Relight

01-31-2011, 09:30 PM

There's some odd things being reported in this thread, the worst of them being that Duke can only carry 2 weapons at once.

I'm not going to judge the game before I see it, but... between these reports and the box art and some of the advertising... I'm starting to feel this might be a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it... oops."

Still, as others have said, it's not going to "live up" to the original game if we're expecting a remake of DN3D. I'm willing to give new features and ideas a chance, but man... it's impossible not to have ridiculously high, opinionated expectations of a game like this.

Caekzor

01-31-2011, 10:38 PM

You can only carry 2 guns, but you also have pipebombs and tripmines.

So technically you carry 4 weapons. ;)

Five counting melee. :p

zavage300

01-31-2011, 11:48 PM

the 2 weapon thing is not much of an issue I can deal with it. But Can it live up to duke3d? I don't know 13 years damaged the hype all we got to do is sit and wait until we have the full shenanigan in our hands.

Bravetriforcer

02-01-2011, 01:56 PM

I think the 14 years may have helped it. In 2001 it would have been released only to get swamped by the Halo craze. 2002-2006 it became the "yeah moar liek 'Did Not Finish' coming When It's Done" deal. In 2007, it looked like it may actually get done. 2008 had the Jace Hall footage, fan-made hype, but disappointment when 3D Realms didn't deliver. By the 2009 shutdown, no one cared anymore. There were the few that still had hope in their heart but it pretty much seemed like a done deal.

DNF is cancelled and was a waste of time, money, and hype...or was it. September 2010, out of nowhere, Gearbox Software drops the big bombshell on everyone. The game isn't dead, it's in playable form, it's coming out in 2011, and YOU GET TO ****ING PLAY IT HERE! Now it's come full circle and DNF can be hyped like any other game. Now DNF isn't just some vaporware joke, it's the real deal. For the first time in over a decade the game's gotten a proper release date, and there's still the demo and actual advertising to get done.

And Caekzor, you forgot Duke's One-Liners in that list.

zndkwn1+

02-05-2011, 07:45 PM

CoD 1 was a classic. No CoD since could come close. But I know what I-Choose the Impossible is talking about. CoD did have the 2 weapon system, but it made sense. Soldiers didn't have utility belts.

Also there is the ego system problem. Half the fun is backtracking when your almost dead and scrounging for health. With Duke it's even more impartive...because now with the "ego system", looking for pipes or anything that might hold water will be useless.

I'm not saying it's a no-buy, but not having health packs is pretty damn un-attractive.

Duke was all about personality, "ego", and with these regenerative garbage is becoming another FPS of the CoD-era. Yes, in CoD it made sense, they even mention it in the game, at the very start when you're in the training level, "Unless you have 3 arms, you can only carry 2 weapons at the same time." And even then, you were allowed to have 2 weapons AND a sidearm, being a pistol, making it 3 total. From CoD 2 and beyond, that was reduced to 2 weapons only. Duke shouldn't have to follow this rule. This is duke, not Blops.

mrgrimmykins

02-06-2011, 04:57 AM

from all the demos and playing i have seen so far of it it seems to have alot more action and the same ol duke humor so i think it will be just as good if not better and i dont get why people are complaining how do you know if the game will be garbage or awesome just based on what you hear? 2 guns plus able to use mines with another button seems fine to me adds more of a challenge in my opinion

running around with 10 guns would make the game to darn easy

Blue Lightning

02-12-2011, 06:10 AM

Duke was all about personality, "ego", and with these regenerative garbage is becoming another FPS of the CoD-era.
I'm not sold on regeneration either. I remember the first time I saw it when I played CoD 2, and I didnt think it made sense then. I mean if your injured almost dead, how does sitting behind a rock give you your health back? Of course Duke's system is a bit different, from what I understand you have to interact with the enviroment somehow to regenerate heath. Like the Souldrinker sword of Dark Messiah, everytime you hit the enemy you get health. I guess we will have to wait and see how it turns out in DNF...but man, I will miss the healthpacks and drinking the water. But it will be a real shame if you dont get some health for using the bathroom. I know in real life, going to the bathroom is for sure 10 health points, at least for me.

From CoD 2 and beyond, that was reduced to 2 weapons only. Duke shouldn't have to follow this rule. This is duke, not Blops.

I dont have as much of a problem with this one. Think of the fun challenge this will make...the player will have to make CHOICES which I like a lot. CHOICES is what made Bioshock a better game. For example, you have a shotgun and a machine gun. You might give up the machine gun for a shrinker (I would defenatly make that choice!) But you have to weigh the fact you might get less shrinker ammo, and that you can destroy more enemies faster with a machine gun. But on the other hand it is fun to step on enemies, and you can shrink yourself to get through a small hole etc - so the player will have to "think" when it comes time to choose.